F-35 Joint Strike Fighter News, Videos and pics Thread

[thunderchief]

what I agree with Chief on is that development and LRIP aircraft are way to expensive, but as Master Head has made more clear those expenses do come down with "volume", especially on this project, as cost is a driving factor in sales, they must come down, if we are to get our partners all "jetted out", their increased capability will be a force multiplier par excellence.

Problem is that current LRIP (low rate initial production) is not low rate anymore . 57 aircraft per year is equal or better then most of serially produced aircraft including Su-30 , Rafale , Typhoon etc ...

Sure, they plan to increase that to 98 per year , then 168 and finally 240 . But that would not happen if prices remain high . And in terms of serial production and volume, 100 is not much better then 50 . So don't expect large increase in volume and drop in prices .

 

[Jeff Head]

I'm sorry Jeff, but unfortunately I'm not wrong .

Oh I believe that based on your original comments...you are still mistaken.

Unfortunately, without cost of R/D , in FY2016 price for 13 F-35 for USN and Marine Corps is $ 2957.3 Million , therefore price of single unit is $ 227.48 Million

For USAF for 44 aircraft, price is $ 5,790.6 Million or $131.6 Million per unit .

Price doesn't include spares, and I don't know if it includes engines .

In my intitial response, I pointed to the quote from the very article you cited to show that it did include engines, a lot of development and testing costs, and a lot of other things..

Now you are changing the game, with this latest post, pointing to the table to get at the 193.5 million per aircraft. Your words

If you look at the table (page 14 in PDF , marked as 1-7 in document) , cost I cited are for aircraft only . Total cost for 57 aircraft , including RDT&E plus spares is $11,012.4 Million , averaging $193.2 Million per aircraft .

The quote you just made thunder says, "including RTD&E." RTD&E means:

Research
Development
Testing
Evaluation

So all of that is included, which is a lot of what I talked about in my prior post.

We see from these numbers, per your post above, that spares are also included in the number...all of which you use to come to the $193.2 million per aircraft.

The RTD&E is a lot of what I spoke of above...and now the spares are added to it too. So, $193.5 million is not a cost for each aircraft alone, it is for the aircraft plus RTD&E and spares ...which was my point in the last post.

I know you don't particularly like the F-35. And I know you look for any document, figure, or other article you can find to substantiate those feelings about it.

That is fine.

But I have also made my own thoughts clear and point to equally compelling evidence for them.

The F-35 is not only going to be a success...it is proving itself successful with each passing day.

Sure there are issues. Sure the cost is high. But that cost has been coming down and will continue to come down.

Will it get below $100m million. We shall just have to wait and see. Perhaps not.

But all of these nations and their planners, and professionals know this...and they know a lot more than we do. And they are buying it anyway.

Talk about it being because of their attachment to the US Military Industrial complex, or other such reasons like because of purely political or ideological reasons does a disservice to the professionals involved. They (the vast majority of them) love their own countries and are looking towards the best interest of their countries.

...and they are buying the F-35.

Time will tell which of us is correct...but I continue to predict that the F-35 will be:

The premier, world-wide 5th generation, stealth strike fighter
The most prolific, sought after and purchased 5th generation, stealth strike fighter
An aircraft that makes game changing differences in CTOL, STOVL and CATOBAR.

Time will tell.

As it is, we have both had our say...the link to the document is there for all to see and read and come to their own conclusions.

You made the first comment on this and I responded. We're even in statements...how about we just let it be and let others decide so we can avoid an endless back and forth?

 

[thunderchief]

Jeff, you probably misunderstood me , so I'm going to repeat myself . My first calculation is just procurement cost . It yields exactly that : $ 227.48 Million for single USN & Marines aircraft and $131.6 Million for single USAF aircraft , or $153.47 Million on average. It is based on Procurement row in table . If you think that procurement includes cost of engine, that is fine by me .

If you include RTD&E (without spares) , price for USN & Marines aircraft goes up to $ 315.9 Million , and for USAF aircraft to $ 147.6 Million . Table does not include breakdown of cost of spares between USN and USAF , so I didn't include that in this calculation . If I did price would be even higher .

Note: Cost of RTD&E for USN is higher then cost of RTD&E for USAF ( $1,149.5 Million vs $704.8 Million) .

I'm going to leave it at this, because I don't want to create further useless discussion .

 

[Jura The idiot]

... If you look at the table (page 14 in PDF , marked as 1-7 in document) , cost I cited are for aircraft only . Total cost for 57 aircraft , including RDT&E plus spares is $11,012.4 Million , averaging $193.2 Million per aircraft .

You have separate costs for each item in the table , I only cited Procurement costs (total $ 8747.9 Million for 57 aircraft ) and of course that does not include development, operational costs or testing - you have separate rows for that .

well, in this thread I repeatedly pointed out Israel had recently purchased 14 F-35s for about $3b, which would fit into the above pricing

...

so it seems to me the current price indeed is about $200m per aircraft

but why don't we just wait and see LOL

 

[Kristian]

well, in this thread I repeatedly pointed out Israel had recently purchased 14 F-35s for about $3b, which would fit into the above pricing

Israel will have 40 F-35 air craft total. Maybe Finland and Norway will have F-35 and Denmark and Sweden will have new Gripens or Rafale for Sweden, 30 pcs of french air craft. 20 pcs of new Gripens how are two divisions and Rafale 3 divisions in Norrbottens, Uppsala and Gotland. F7 in Gotland and outs for Såtenäs. Upgrate Uppsala so Sweden have protection of Stockholm. Norrbottens and Uppsala with 20 new Gripens. Or both of new Gripens and Rafale?? 30 + 20 = 50 is 3 divisions air craft in Sweden.

Of F-35 so it nicely to read Netherlands and Britain will go half down air craft.

And Canada will offers for F-18 E/F instead for F-35 how is moneytalks.

Smaller prices for F-18 E/F.

Of options.

 

[Jura The idiot]

yesterday I posted (in the UK Thread, with a comment which might be a stretch)
https://www.sinodefenceforum.com/uk-military-news-thread.t2437/page-148#post-348060
the vid of the event described in
F-35B Leaps off Ski Jump for the First Time

The F-35B jump-jet version of the Joint Strike Fighter has completed its first takeoff from a ski jump, the Pentagon announced Tuesday.

The stealthy fifth-generation fighter jet designed to fly like a plane and land like a helicopter accomplished the task Friday from a test-ramp at Naval Air Station Patuxent River in Maryland, according to Joe DellaVedova, a spokesman for the Pentagon’s F-35 program.

“This test is one of the milestones along the way for integrating the F-35B aboard UK and Italian aircraft carriers,” he said in an e-mail.

Both countries plan to deploy their short take-off and vertical-landing (STOVL) versions of the jet aboard carriers equipped with a ski jump, a feature that allows aircraft to carry more weight despite taking off from a short runway.

The Joint Strike Fighter is the Pentagon’s most expensive weapons program, estimated to cost about $400 billion to purchase a total of 2,457 aircraft for the Air Force, Marine Corps and Navy. U.S. allies are expected to buy hundreds more.

The U.K. plans to buy nearly 140 of the aircraft, all F-35B variants; Italy expects to purchase 90 of the jets, including 30 F-35B models.

The Royal Navy aims to deploy the planes on the new HMS Queen Elizabeth carrier, to be commissioned next year, and eventually the HMS Prince of Wales, to be launched around 2017. The Italian navy, meanwhile, will have to modify its Cavour light aircraft carrier to accommodate the new jets.

By comparison, the U.S. Navy is buying the F-35C, which is designed to work with the catapults and arresting gear used aboard the larger American aircraft carriers.

“This test was a success for the joint ski jump team,” Peter Wilson, the BAE Systems test pilot and Briton who flew the June 19 mission, said in a press release. “The aircraft performed well and I can’t wait until we’re conducting F-35 ski jumps from the deck of the Queen Elizabeth carrier.”

In the picture above, note the F-35B has its nozzle directed downward to maximize rate of ascent. In the release, Gordon Stewart, flying qualities engineer representing the UK Ministry of Defence, touted the aircraft’s higher degree of automation during takeoffs and landings.

“For ski jump launches, the aircraft recognizes when it is on the ramp and responds by positioning the control surfaces and nozzles automatically for takeoff and climb,” he said. “We’ll be using these results — along with those from future testing — to help us prepare for the first shipboard ski jump launch from HMS Queen Elizabeth.”

Unfortunately, that may still be a long way off. The ramp test itself was delayed by several months and F-35 trials aboard the Queen Elizabeth may not happen until around 2018 or later.

Meantime, check out the video of the F-35B launching from the ski jump at Pax River:

source:

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[Air Force Brat]

yesterday I posted (in the UK Thread, with a comment which might be a stretch)
https://www.sinodefenceforum.com/uk-military-news-thread.t2437/page-148#post-348060
the vid of the event described in
F-35B Leaps off Ski Jump for the First Time

source:

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I haven't said it in a while, but you are one of the brightest bulbs in this pack buddy

 

[bd popeye]

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[Jeff Head]

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Several nations are specifically buying the F-35B for their STOVL carriers. (The UK, Italy, Spain).

Others are considering it (Australia, Japan, Korea). Heck, Turkey is keeping the ski-jump on its LPH and they too may consider the "bravo," one day.

All of those who deploy F-35Bs to their carriers are going to benefit greatly from doing so.

As such, I expect we will see a lot more of those ski-jump take-offs from carriers over the next few decades.

The F-35 Joint Strike Fighter beat goes on!

 

[Jura The idiot]

I haven't said it in a while, but you are one of the brightest bulbs in this pack buddy

I already have a story to tell about the ski-jump video: I posted it, in the UK Thread, let me see ...
Tuesday at 11:03 AM
so less than 30 hours after that, yesterday in the afternoon, I was in the pub and a guy who just came said to me: Do you know about the F-35B test? I just saw the video ... and after I had stopped laughing out loud, I asked him where did he see it ... the answer was some Czech news-server ... so I explained him about my fresh SDF post, and we tried to talk, in the way we could LOL about how the "spaces" (I mean what's probably called flaps behind the cockpit) open before/during take-off, and why ... the conclusion is the information is spread really fast these days