F-35 Joint Strike Fighter News, Videos and pics Thread

Jura The idiot

Jura The idiot

General
Jeff Head said:
The F-35 is bringing to the table a lot of new capabilities. That is ALWAYS expensive.

Will they get the fly away costs of individual aircraft down to a total of $80 million...not terribly likely. But they are working on it, and that price continues to drop steadily.

My major contention was that Thunder's post stated some average costs for the 2016 F-35 program that were not at all an average "per aircraft" cost as he contended. They included all of those other items which I listed, which he had indicated that they did not include.

You have to include them all when averaging the costs and speaking of the program. The fact is, engine costs, development costs, system engineering costs, development testing costs, and operational testing costs are all included with the actual cost of the aircraft in those 2016 numbers.
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I recall this Spring
Jura said:
the part I don't understand at all is:


the deal made by Israel most recently https://www.sinodefenceforum.com/f-...os-and-pics-thread.t5796/page-231#post-328515
comes with a two times higher price ("about $3b" for 14)
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(it doesn't show it was the reaction to Brumby's statement of about $100m per copy; dated
Feb 28, 2015)

so it seems to me the current price indeed is about $200m per aircraft
 
Jeff Head

Jeff Head

General
Registered Member
Jura said:
... it seems to me the current price indeed is about $200m per aircraft
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Jura, just like with the other comment and assertion, we have to look at the details of the deal before we attribute a price per aircraft to just the total contract price.

I do not know what all is included in that contract.

Clearly, the post above, when you got down to the details for the US price, it included a lot more than just the aircraft. I suspect the Israeli deal probably does too...but I do not know.

Generally, foreign nations, particularly those who were not a partner in the program, are going to pay more. But it is probably almost a certainty that the full contract price will include more than the aircraft alone.
 
S

strehl

Junior Member
Registered Member
This is the Adaptive Cycle engine mentioned earlier. GE is pushing to get on the F-35 since F-18 production is not going to last much longer and there just isn't anything else out there with the kind of orders to match. They tried with the F-136 but it didn't offer enough to make it worthwhile. With this new tech engine they can now get sufficient interest to entice the customers into letting them in. Pratt&Whitney has to cut their prices in the short term to keep their place and then upgrade the technology in their own engine to stay competitive. The PW corporate "culture" doesn't like taking risks in new technology even taking into account their new geared turbofan. It is implementing an old idea (at least since their geared propfan) without pushing fundamentals such as combustion efficiency (new, higher temp materials) and super high compression ratios. I think it may stem from bad memories from their original big turbofan engines introduced on the 747. They didn't go bankrupt like Rolls (RB211 development pains) but it might have left deep scars.


 
Jeff Head

Jeff Head

General
Registered Member
strehl said:
This is the Adaptive Cycle engine mentioned earlier.

With this new tech engine they can now get sufficient interest to entice the customers into letting them in. Pratt&Whitney has to cut their prices in the short term to keep their place and then upgrade the technology in their own engine to stay competitive.
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This is exciting stuff. I hope they are successful.
 
Jura The idiot

Jura The idiot

General
Jura said:
using google a moment ago I found the article; no pictures yet:
Nellis-based F-35 fighters debut in simulated combat

source:
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related, presumably good news (dated Jun 18):
F-35 Unscathed by Hostile Fire in Green Flag
The F-35 has participated in Green Flag exercises—conducted twice a year—since 2013; however, this was the first time it was featured prominently. “In comparison with the other airframes, they provided the most sorties over the most days,” says Master Sgt. Sanjay Allen, a Nellis spokesman. Two operational test F-35As participated in the fight from Edwards AFB, California. They flew more than 10 days, with sorties taking place in some cases multiple times a day.

Typical weapon loadout for these missions included a single 2,000-lb. GBU-31 and two 500-lb. GBU 12s, which are laser-guided Paveways, Allen says.

He bristles at the idea that the media invitation to Green Flag was an F-35 PR stunt. “We’ve had media days at this Green Flag before,” he says. “Just because the F-35 is here doesn’t mean this is a PR stunt.”

He and Maj. Christopher Laird, an F-35 pilot, say pilots are learning lessons on how better to employ the F-35 in a contested CAS role, the point of the exercise. With his focus on training pilots, Laird seems almost exasperated at the PR stunt criticism. “This isn’t magic,” he says. “It isn’t bringing anything magic to the fight,” but adding a new capability to the mix, he contends.

Green Flag is intended to tax operators to their max so when they reach actual combat they are proficient in a variety of scenarios. Perhaps contributing to the “PR stunt criticism” is that Green Flag is the lesser known of Nellis’s big exercises. Air Force leaders have only recently begun to discuss the exercise widely as they have fought to explain how the F-35 will provide CAS. They more often point to Red Flag, which tests pilots’ air-to-air skills, as the gold standard of flying exercises.

Laird says the F-35 pilots were able to communicate directly with ground-based air controllers calling in fires for CAS. While doing so, the F-35s provided their own counter air, or capability to evade hostile fires.

He acknowledges that one challenge is for the F-35 to communicate with legacy aircraft—F-15Es, F-16s and A-10s—when operating covertly. The F-35’s Link 16 is effective in transmitting data, but it broadcasts the jet’s location, nullifying its stealthiness. By contrast, F-35s can pass data to other F-35s via the Multifunction Advanced Data Link, which is not accessible to legacy aircraft. “What we are trying to figure out now is integrating the F-35 with fourth-gen assets,” Laird says. Passing threat data from the F-35 to these fighters will make them more survivable in the fight, he adds.

Nellis officials did not provide sortie tallies.

Meanwhile,
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officials are preparing for a series of operational readiness trials for the first squadron of F-35Bs in advance of the plan to announce initial operational capability for the aircraft in late July. VMFA-121 at MCAS Yuma, Arizona, will be the first operational F-35 unit in the world, with 10 F-35B Block 2B aircraft and enough trained pilots and maintainers to deploy for operations if needed.

The first F-35 deployment is slated for 2017, when the unit will operate from MCAS Iwakuni, Japan.
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source:
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Brumby

Brumby

Major
He acknowledges that one challenge is for the F-35 to communicate with legacy aircraft—F-15Es, F-16s and A-10s—when operating covertly. The F-35’s Link 16 is effective in transmitting data, but it broadcasts the jet’s location, nullifying its stealthiness. By contrast, F-35s can pass data to other F-35s via the Multifunction Advanced Data Link, which is not accessible to legacy aircraft. “What we are trying to figure out now is integrating the F-35 with fourth-gen assets,” Laird says. Passing threat data from the F-35 to these fighters will make them more survivable in the fight, he adds.
I remember last year it was reported that the 5th to 4th gen communications bridge would be developed via the MAPS program using a communication pod that would be attached to the 4th gen. plane. Haven't heard how that is progressing
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thunderchief

thunderchief

Senior Member
Jeff Head said:
Sorry Thunder, you are simply wrong, and the article itself states it.

When speaking of the 2016 F-35 Program, which these costs will pay for, it specifically states that it includes:



So the costs you attempted to average for the individual aircraft include:

- Continued Development of the aircraft.
- The F135 engine costs.
- System Engineering costs.
- Development Testing costs.
- Operational Testing costs.
- Follow on development costs.
- 44 F-35A for the USAF
- 9 F-35B for the USMC
- 4 F-35C for the USN

Clearly your average includes all of those costs. That is not the number just for the aircraft.
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I'm sorry Jeff, but unfortunately I'm not wrong :D . If you look at the table (page 14 in PDF , marked as 1-7 in document) , cost I cited are for aircraft only . Total cost for 57 aircraft , including RDT&E plus spares is $11,012.4 Million , averaging $193.2 Million per aircraft .

You have separate costs for each item in the table , I only cited Procurement costs (total $ 8747.9 Million for 57 aircraft ) and of course that does not include development, operational costs or testing - you have separate rows for that .
 
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