F-35 Joint Strike Fighter News, Videos and pics Thread

thunderchief

Senior Member
But if you don't have active cancellation technology at all, then the F-35 is LO/VLO only in the X band while an aircraft with active cancellation is LO/VLO in all bands irrespective of the level of passive treatment on it.

No. Active cancellation works only if could you have been irradiated at certain frequency, calculate appropriate cancellation signal at same frequency, and then emit that back . Due to constraints in size, fighters could not effectively emit low-frequency signals in order to cancel them. Size of emitting antenna is usually 1/2 of wave length .
 

Zool

Junior Member
I never said it was operational. All I made are claims, since that is all that is available, the same as the F-35's claims. All I know is the RNAF gave a score that put it on the same level as the F-35. It is possible the score is similar because Dassault offered some kind of alternative to counter the F-35's stealth. As you can see, no other aircraft came close to either the Rafale or the F-35 in the graph. The closest was the Typhoon, and there was a difference of 100+ points.

And being sensitive technology, I don't see why the French would give away information in open source. As far as evidence is concerned, we may have to wait until the F-35 is fully operational before we know more.

I am enjoying the various points made in this thread and think it is generally a good discussion being had, but speculation is sending the conversation in circles (above highlighted as an example but not as a sole knock against you Bar Brother). What we "know" is a step above what we can "infer" from observations. And both are light years beyond what we "suspect or believe", when discussing technologies and capabilities.

Something I tried to point out before, and others have spoken about as well, is the methodology behind the F-35 design. It was developed around the concept of Passive Stealth and Networked Warfare - building upon the US Navy's CEC model (Cooperative Engagement Capability). It's LO Design, Materials, Shared Sensors and Passive Systems all come together to create an aircraft that is able to achieve first Threat Detection and then prosecute the target.

Now your mileage may vary when coming up against other peer 5th Gen, Reduced Signature Aircraft. But the name of the game has always been see first, shoot first and 4th Gen aircraft will fundamentally never be able to match the F-35 or likely any other 5th Gen program in this regard. Air Warfare is a balance between how little you can emit/reflect while still being able to achieve a lock.

Those are current day, known tactics based on the latest technologies. It does not depend on a hush hush black project or research program. If you put stock in Active Cancellation as the trump to F-35's capabilities and the way it has been designed to fight, you need to show some hard evidence of operational use. I am unaware of Spectra currently employing Active Cancellation and I think you would have a hard time showing otherwise from a credited source (referring back to my first paragraph of circular speculation and articles based on the same).

Putting all of that aside and going slightly off-topic, if Rafale is the aircraft you claim it to be, why is this deal not done? There are plenty of MKI in service now, why not divert funds to the Rafale and up it's numbers? Why is the Indian Navy not joining in on the purchase? And why did Rafale lose all of those prior tenders? Let's be honest, if it was the F-35 / 5th Gen killer you claim, with Active Cancellation secret sauce to boot, it would be operating in at least 1 or 2 other countries besides France right now.
 

Air Force Brat

Brigadier
Super Moderator
I am enjoying the various points made in this thread and think it is generally a good discussion being had, but speculation is sending the conversation in circles (above highlighted as an example but not as a sole knock against you Bar Brother). What we "know" is a step above what we can "infer" from observations. And both are light years beyond what we "suspect or believe", when discussing technologies and capabilities.

Something I tried to point out before, and others have spoken about as well, is the methodology behind the F-35 design. It was developed around the concept of Passive Stealth and Networked Warfare - building upon the US Navy's CEC model (Cooperative Engagement Capability). It's LO Design, Materials, Shared Sensors and Passive Systems all come together to create an aircraft that is able to achieve first Threat Detection and then prosecute the target.

Now your mileage may vary when coming up against other peer 5th Gen, Reduced Signature Aircraft. But the name of the game has always been see first, shoot first and 4th Gen aircraft will fundamentally never be able to match the F-35 or likely any other 5th Gen program in this regard. Air Warfare is a balance between how little you can emit/reflect while still being able to achieve a lock.

Those are current day, known tactics based on the latest technologies. It does not depend on a hush hush black project or research program. If you put stock in Active Cancellation as the trump to F-35's capabilities and the way it has been designed to fight, you need to show some hard evidence of operational use. I am unaware of Spectra currently employing Active Cancellation and I think you would have a hard time showing otherwise from a credited source (referring back to my first paragraph of circular speculation and articles based on the same).

Putting all of that aside and going slightly off-topic, if Rafale is the aircraft you claim it to be, why is this deal not done? There are plenty of MKI in service now, why not divert funds to the Rafale and up it's numbers? Why is the Indian Navy not joining in on the purchase? And why did Rafale lose all of those prior tenders? Let's be honest, if it was the F-35 / 5th Gen killer you claim, with Active Cancellation secret sauce to boot, it would be operating in at least 1 or 2 other countries besides France right now.

thank you master Zool, a very fine post, to the point and accurate!
 

Skywatcher

Captain
A successful program in the past does not guarantee success in the future as already demonstrated. Passive stealth is reaching obsolescence fairly quickly further compounded due to the delays with the F-35. Benefit of doubt can be provided only if the US decides to export technologies that are classified as non-export grade for the F-35.

However I do agree that the Russians have some ways to go before they show something worthwhile. But not to the point one simply dismisses them for no reason.

But you far less reason to accept Russian claims, since having built a successful 5th generation program (Lockheed Martin) makes them far more credible than someone who hasn't.
 

A Bar Brother

Junior Member
No. Active cancellation works only if could you have been irradiated at certain frequency, calculate appropriate cancellation signal at same frequency, and then emit that back . Due to constraints in size, fighters could not effectively emit low-frequency signals in order to cancel them. Size of emitting antenna is usually 1/2 of wave length .

Spectra carries antennas in the L band and other bands too.
 

A Bar Brother

Junior Member
I am enjoying the various points made in this thread and think it is generally a good discussion being had, but speculation is sending the conversation in circles (above highlighted as an example but not as a sole knock against you Bar Brother). What we "know" is a step above what we can "infer" from observations. And both are light years beyond what we "suspect or believe", when discussing technologies and capabilities.

Something I tried to point out before, and others have spoken about as well, is the methodology behind the F-35 design. It was developed around the concept of Passive Stealth and Networked Warfare - building upon the US Navy's CEC model (Cooperative Engagement Capability). It's LO Design, Materials, Shared Sensors and Passive Systems all come together to create an aircraft that is able to achieve first Threat Detection and then prosecute the target.

Now your mileage may vary when coming up against other peer 5th Gen, Reduced Signature Aircraft. But the name of the game has always been see first, shoot first and 4th Gen aircraft will fundamentally never be able to match the F-35 or likely any other 5th Gen program in this regard. Air Warfare is a balance between how little you can emit/reflect while still being able to achieve a lock.

Those are current day, known tactics based on the latest technologies. It does not depend on a hush hush black project or research program. If you put stock in Active Cancellation as the trump to F-35's capabilities and the way it has been designed to fight, you need to show some hard evidence of operational use. I am unaware of Spectra currently employing Active Cancellation and I think you would have a hard time showing otherwise from a credited source (referring back to my first paragraph of circular speculation and articles based on the same).

Putting all of that aside and going slightly off-topic, if Rafale is the aircraft you claim it to be, why is this deal not done? There are plenty of MKI in service now, why not divert funds to the Rafale and up it's numbers? Why is the Indian Navy not joining in on the purchase? And why did Rafale lose all of those prior tenders? Let's be honest, if it was the F-35 / 5th Gen killer you claim, with Active Cancellation secret sauce to boot, it would be operating in at least 1 or 2 other countries besides France right now.

If Rafale has active cancellation, then the F-35 is no match to the Rafale. The opposite if false. As of today, there is no legitimate source saying Spectra is capable of active cancellation. There are only claims.

As for the Indian MMRCA deal, the deal has progressed most of the distance. The contract negotiations are done and the 15,000 page draft contract was handed to the Cost Negotiation Committee last month. They are negotiating the liability clause as far as open source information goes. It's a clause which says Dassault is responsible for delays in delivery of HAL manufactured jets.

As for why this deal hasn't been signed yet, the procedures for contract negotiations are pretty long in India. The negotiations between General Electric and ADA for the new F-414 engines took 3 years as well. The Rafale negotiations are actually proceeding really fast, this is especially considering 90% of the aircraft will eventually be made in India, placing a far greater emphasis on ToT and industrial production than in earlier deals. Extra production capacity can be used to export the aircraft to other countries too. If it was just license assembly, then the deal wouldn't have taken this long.

I don't see why funds from MKI have to be transferred to the Rafale. The issues plaguing the negotiations is not funds but bureaucratic procedures.

As for why Rafale has been losing, as already mentioned in some links, the costs were too high. Some countries like Singapore couldn't afford it. And as I had said a long time ago, stealth isn't a high priority for many air forces. If the same Singapore deal happened between Rafale and the F-35, the F-35 would have lost based on costs. Of course, they could always do a Korea and simply cancel the tender.

I also don't see why France will want to give away their best to other countries for very small amounts of money. India is a different case, we may eventually see more Rafales in Indian service than in France. So it makes sense for AdlA/MN and IAF to combine their funds and requirements to jointly develop newer technologies over the Rafale's lifetime, similar to what's happening with Russia. That is not the case with air forces that need between 18 and 60 jets. The fleet is too small to actually give away active cancellation technologies. And I'm pretty sure active cancellation will be a non-export technology for the US. But I guess France may be more willing when it comes to NATO countries, like the RNAF, while also leveling the playing field against the F-35 in Europe (currently the F-35's largest market).

I hope you do realize even the US considers active stealth technologies to be superior to passive technologies. They refer to active technologies as the next step in the evolution of stealth. Also, I don't see why it will be particularly surprising if France or any other country deploys it first, if not already deployed. There is a pretty big difference between the first to develop and the first to deploy.
 

HMS Astute

Junior Member
What aircraft would India buy if Rafale deal got called off?

Can India with the economy the size of Canada afford to maintain more Rafale than France alongside hundreds of Russian made jets?

I had heard that US doesn't allow India to buy F-35, but would India buy it if allowed?
 
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Dizasta1

Senior Member
What aircraft would India buy if Rafale deal got called off? Can India with the economy the size of Canada afford to maintain more Rafale than France alongside hundreds of Russian made jets? I had heard that US doesn't allow India to buy F-35, but would India buy it if allowed?

I think the pertinent question to ask is whether india truly believes that it can maintain such level of defence spendings. Particularly when it's economy has been slumping since the end of FY-2011/12. Here's a quote and weblink:

"The Indian military faced a moment where it has to choose between fighting the debilitating effects of a slow economy after 2011 versus the pursuit of a largely Pakistan-specific military buildup. With the slowest GDP (3.2% in 2012 and less than 5% in 2013) in a decade, India's military managers faced tough choices. They have to balance a weak Indian rupee with the payment of salaries and pensions and the procurement of enough weapons to project power against neighbors, especially Pakistan and China."

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As for America prohibiting the sale of F-35s to india is concerned. It is untrue and incorrect information that you have received. It is quite the contrary, where America is willing to invite india into the F-35 partner program and/or permit the sale of F-35s to india. Read the following quote:

"Despite this setback, we believe U.S. aircraft, such as the Joint Strike Fighter (JSF), to be the best in the world," said the Pentagon report, referring to the radar-evading F-35 jet. "Should India indicate interest in the JSF, the United States would be prepared to provide information on the JSF and its requirements ... to support India's future planning."

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