F-22 versus J-20 milestone comparison (production, test, operations)

tphuang

Lieutenant General
Staff member
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Safran engine technology is comparable to GE/RR/PW.

Is there any other competitive high performance turbofan engine produce by other countries apart from USA. UK, Russia and China ? how about Canada ?

Technically, MTU is a partner in the V2500 series that's on so many A320CEO aircraft. It is also part of GTF program. However, everyone knows Pratt is leader of these partnership. Similarly, everyone knows GE is the leader of the of the CFM International. After all, Safran and MTU are not competitive in any of the other major commercial turbofan engine. So, I would put things in this order at the moment:
Tier 1
GE, PW, RR
Tier 2
MTU, Safran
Tier 3
AVICEngine, Japanese AeroEngine, Russia.

I think AVICEngine has a good change of hitting tier 2 if they can get WS-15, WS-19 and CJ-1000/2000 developed. the good thing is they finally have a full lineup of engines comparable to US and Russia. Most of these companies are more specialized. They don't have a full spectrum of engine products.
 

antiterror13

Brigadier
Technically, MTU is a partner in the V2500 series that's on so many A320CEO aircraft. It is also part of GTF program. However, everyone knows Pratt is leader of these partnership. Similarly, everyone knows GE is the leader of the of the CFM International. After all, Safran and MTU are not competitive in any of the other major commercial turbofan engine. So, I would put things in this order at the moment:
Tier 1
GE, PW, RR
Tier 2
MTU, Safran
Tier 3
AVICEngine, Japanese AeroEngine, Russia.

I think AVICEngine has a good change of hitting tier 2 if they can get WS-15, WS-19 and CJ-1000/2000 developed. the good thing is they finally have a full lineup of engines comparable to US and Russia. Most of these companies are more specialized. They don't have a full spectrum of engine products.

Thanks. The Japanese Aero haven't successfully developed any turbofan engine themselves, always as a minor partner of others. So I would put them in Tier 4
 

gelgoog

Lieutenant General
Registered Member
IHI Corporation produces the F7 engine used on the P-1 maritime patrol aircraft. So yes Japan has developed its own turbofan engine that is in current use. The XF9 5th generation engine is in a highly advanced stage of development.

I would also add the Ukrainians to that list. Even if their long term development prospects seem questionable at best.
 

Blitzo

Lieutenant General
Staff member
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This is one area China will have to wait a long time to catch up. GE/RR/PW have a huge technology lead over rest of the world. Just think about the $billion orders they receive every year and all that CAPEX they need to spend to eke out additional thrust, lower noise level or improve fuel burn. Until the past decade, China has really never been able to invest anywhere close to the same level of money on its aeroengine industry. Frankly, that money was always better spent on other projects.

In the 5 years I was gone, the most curious development I saw is the vastly proliferation of aeroengine for aircraft and helicopters. I remember back in the days, so many projects were held back or produced more slowly due to reliance on Russian engines or not having engines. Remember, PLAN only saw the massive build group start up after they got domestic production ramped up on QC-280 for 052C/D, diesel engines for 054A and also the engines for Yuan class.

As such, now that they have this full lineup of engines available, they can finally ramp up their production. I mean they are building probably 80 to 100 large helicopters a year. They never would've been able to do this before they could mass produce WZ-9/10 or even newer WZ-6 variants. It's only with the complete development of WS-10 that they are now able to mass produce everything. The entire process is cyclical in nature.

Better engine performance reliability -> higher order count from more planes -> more revenue -> more investment in people and R&D -> even better engine performance. That's how you get quicker development cycle and faster improvement. That type of investment flows down all through the supply chain.

The point is now that we've reached this point, I expect the improvements to come more quickly. They never would've been able to mass produce J-20 if they are still relying on the Russians for engines. Just look at how much the Russians struggle with their own aircraft production.

Having said all of this, one must still be realistic about where they are. Currently, WS-10C has wet thrust 142 kN according to reports whereas F-119 is at 156 kN. I'm not sure what the weight of each engine is, but F-119 should have a slight advantage over WS-10C in T/W ratio also (9 vs 8.5 to 8.7?) While that makes it sound like WS-10C is 90% of the engine F-119 is, one should also keep in mind that the top line numbers are confidential, since neither J-20/F-22 are being exported. I've heard F-119 thrust to be a lot higher than that. WS-10C might also actually be at 150 kN for all I know. But the greatest advantage F-119 has is in its dry thrust. Even when American and Russian engines have similar thrust with afterburners, the dry thrust were higher for American engines. I'd guess there is a similar gap in dry thrust between China and America if we think of WS-10C as having slightly better characteristics. Aside from this, Western engines also have really high standard for MTBO and fuel burn. China does have higher expectations here than Russians, but still lower than Western counterpart. Keep in mind, we are comparing an engine (F-119) that was used on F-22 by early 2000s vs WS-10C, which only went on production machines in 2019. We are looking a gap of about 20 years if China continued to improve WS-10 series to reach over 150 kN in thrust. The gap would be at most 25 years if we assume that WS-15 will exceed F-119's performance and be production certified in the 2025 to 2027 time frame.

Now, moving on to WS-15. The best comparison for its is probably F-135. From what we know, WS-15 will have a T/W ratio of around 10. We know F-135 is at around 11.5. If we just look at when the flight testing with J-20/W-15 started (let's say 2021) vs when F-35/F-135 started (let's say late 2000s), we are still looking at about a 15 year gap and a more advanced engine with F-135. If WS-15 reaches mass production in 5 years, it would be 15 years after non-prototype F-35s started to fly with F-135. It's hard to compare more deeply than this, since American fighter jet generally don't have to wait for engines.

So, when I look at China's aeroengine industry vs GE or Pratt, I just don't see the gap shrinking as fast as other areas. These Western companies have to throw so much capex every year to push the boundaries of engine performance that China's military related investment can't compare to it. I do expect China to blow past Russia here though.

I agree with your overall position, but I think your answer is not necessarily what Antiterror was asking about.

He was asking when we could believe that the USAF 6th gen fighter would receive its intended powerplant, versus the PLA 6th gen fighter receiving its intended powerplant, and how big of a gap in it will be.


I agree that as a whole the US aeroengine industry will remain quite far ahead of that of China's overall aeroengine industry for a good while, but in terms of the specific "6th generation fighter intended powerplant" I am not sure if the gap will necessarily be quite that large, though I wouldn't be surprised if the USAF 6th gen fighter's "intended powerplant" is slightly more technologically advanced than the PLA 6th gen's "intended powerplant".
 

gelgoog

Lieutenant General
Registered Member
It depends on what they choose to power the 6th generation aircraft. By some accounts the GE engine on the ATF program which led to the F-22 is considered a precursor to a 6th generation engine. GE and Rolls-Royce also got funding to do a demonstrator like a decade ago. Back then the US was still considering having a 2nd source engine for the F-35.
 

Maikeru

Major
Registered Member
It depends on what they choose to power the 6th generation aircraft. By some accounts the GE engine on the ATF program which led to the F-22 is considered a precursor to a 6th generation engine. GE and Rolls-Royce also got funding to do a demonstrator like a decade ago. Back then the US was still considering having a 2nd source engine for the F-35.
2d F35 engine (GE/RR) got binned by US DoD without even telling UK.
 

minime

Junior Member
Registered Member
So, when I look at China's aeroengine industry vs GE or Pratt, I just don't see the gap shrinking as fast as other areas. These Western companies have to throw so much capex every year to push the boundaries of engine performance that China's military related investment can't compare to it. I do expect China to blow past Russia here though.
Is possible that the aeroengine industry has entered the phase of diminishing returns for military turbofan engines so China is not that far behind?
 

gelgoog

Lieutenant General
Registered Member
Not really. If anything I think the next generation of military aircraft engines will be a larger improvement than the last one was.
 

latenlazy

Brigadier
This is one area China will have to wait a long time to catch up. GE/RR/PW have a huge technology lead over rest of the world. Just think about the $billion orders they receive every year and all that CAPEX they need to spend to eke out additional thrust, lower noise level or improve fuel burn. Until the past decade, China has really never been able to invest anywhere close to the same level of money on its aeroengine industry. Frankly, that money was always better spent on other projects.

In the 5 years I was gone, the most curious development I saw is the vastly proliferation of aeroengine for aircraft and helicopters. I remember back in the days, so many projects were held back or produced more slowly due to reliance on Russian engines or not having engines. Remember, PLAN only saw the massive build group start up after they got domestic production ramped up on QC-280 for 052C/D, diesel engines for 054A and also the engines for Yuan class.

As such, now that they have this full lineup of engines available, they can finally ramp up their production. I mean they are building probably 80 to 100 large helicopters a year. They never would've been able to do this before they could mass produce WZ-9/10 or even newer WZ-6 variants. It's only with the complete development of WS-10 that they are now able to mass produce everything. The entire process is cyclical in nature.

Better engine performance reliability -> higher order count from more planes -> more revenue -> more investment in people and R&D -> even better engine performance. That's how you get quicker development cycle and faster improvement. That type of investment flows down all through the supply chain.

The point is now that we've reached this point, I expect the improvements to come more quickly. They never would've been able to mass produce J-20 if they are still relying on the Russians for engines. Just look at how much the Russians struggle with their own aircraft production.

Having said all of this, one must still be realistic about where they are. Currently, WS-10C has wet thrust 142 kN according to reports whereas F-119 is at 156 kN. I'm not sure what the weight of each engine is, but F-119 should have a slight advantage over WS-10C in T/W ratio also (9 vs 8.5 to 8.7?) While that makes it sound like WS-10C is 90% of the engine F-119 is, one should also keep in mind that the top line numbers are confidential, since neither J-20/F-22 are being exported. I've heard F-119 thrust to be a lot higher than that. WS-10C might also actually be at 150 kN for all I know. But the greatest advantage F-119 has is in its dry thrust. Even when American and Russian engines have similar thrust with afterburners, the dry thrust were higher for American engines. I'd guess there is a similar gap in dry thrust between China and America if we think of WS-10C as having slightly better characteristics. Aside from this, Western engines also have really high standard for MTBO and fuel burn. China does have higher expectations here than Russians, but still lower than Western counterpart. Keep in mind, we are comparing an engine (F-119) that was used on F-22 by early 2000s vs WS-10C, which only went on production machines in 2019. We are looking a gap of about 20 years if China continued to improve WS-10 series to reach over 150 kN in thrust. The gap would be at most 25 years if we assume that WS-15 will exceed F-119's performance and be production certified in the 2025 to 2027 time frame.

Now, moving on to WS-15. The best comparison for its is probably F-135. From what we know, WS-15 will have a T/W ratio of around 10. We know F-135 is at around 11.5. If we just look at when the flight testing with J-20/W-15 started (let's say 2021) vs when F-35/F-135 started (let's say late 2000s), we are still looking at about a 15 year gap and a more advanced engine with F-135. If WS-15 reaches mass production in 5 years, it would be 15 years after non-prototype F-35s started to fly with F-135. It's hard to compare more deeply than this, since American fighter jet generally don't have to wait for engines.

So, when I look at China's aeroengine industry vs GE or Pratt, I just don't see the gap shrinking as fast as other areas. These Western companies have to throw so much capex every year to push the boundaries of engine performance that China's military related investment can't compare to it. I do expect China to blow past Russia here though.

I agree with your overall position, but I think your answer is not necessarily what Antiterror was asking about.

He was asking when we could believe that the USAF 6th gen fighter would receive its intended powerplant, versus the PLA 6th gen fighter receiving its intended powerplant, and how big of a gap in it will be.


I agree that as a whole the US aeroengine industry will remain quite far ahead of that of China's overall aeroengine industry for a good while, but in terms of the specific "6th generation fighter intended powerplant" I am not sure if the gap will necessarily be quite that large, though I wouldn't be surprised if the USAF 6th gen fighter's "intended powerplant" is slightly more technologically advanced than the PLA 6th gen's "intended powerplant".
I don’t think the gap is as big as either of you guys think…

The WS-10C is one generation behind the F119 in terms of its basic engine design, but to be able to push that design to 140+ kN means that the components and materials used in the C variant are likely to be on par with or better than what’s used in the F119. The F135 is basically the same generation design wise as the F119, but uses materials and components that’s one generation ahead. The WS-15 by design should be the same generation as the F135 and F119. The materials and components it’s using may be of the same generation or perhaps only slightly more advanced than the F119. However, if some of the snippets we’ve gotten about the WS-15 from the grapevine are true, they’re already working on a second iteration of the design while the original variant is wrapping up testing for production, which I suspect would probably put a hypothetical B variant of the WS-15 on par with the F-135.

With gauging level of advancement in engine technologies I don’t think the best way is to look at the thrust to weight ratio, but the components and materials that are being employed or are going through testing. Those components and materials are the key enablers of the technology, and they precede the technological advancement of designs that find their way into production. And from what I can tell perusing academic publications China’s advancement in engine materials and components is far outpacing the rate at which they’re iterating on designs. Eventually that gap will close, but engines have long product development cycles, so there’s bound to be a bit of lag in convergence with deployment to production relative to state of technological advancement.
 

gelgoog

Lieutenant General
Registered Member
You are correct of course but given the lack of information on materials and processes in engines using the thrust to weight ratio and fuel consumption are the best guesstimates we can use to distinguish engine generations.
 
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