F-22 Raptor Thread

[Jura The idiot]

... In any regard the F-22 upgrade looks good!

I'll repeat here what I barked at people (LOL) in
US Military News, Reports, Data, etc. Saturday at 7:06 AM

don't you know the Pentagon will have to have pay tens of billion yearly for F-35s during 2020s EDIT and beyond?!

 

[Air Force Brat]

Timing is too late. When the F-22 went IOC, they ought to have started the work for the C model. Doing what they are proposing would have been the right thing, except the F-35 avionics were a mess at the time of the F-22A IOC and even still at the time of the 22A production cancellation.

Now, the NGAD/PCA is ramping up and a FrankenRaptor would be an expensive distraction. Given the funding profile for the NGAD program, there ought to be demonstrators in the air within 3 years. the "F-36" (or 37) - if it is really a fighter - will be selected and getting ready for a very short EMD: the USAF RCO is running the procurement. This will be short and relatively sweet compared to the F-35 and even F-22. It will follow the B-21 trajectory, which could mean a new fighter before 2028 in production.

It would be a far, far better thing to have Boeing do a SLEP on the F-15s and add as much of the F-15X capabilities as is financially feasible.

The timing couldn't honestly be any better, the people of Japan, as well as those who pay attention to such matters here in the US realize that the threat level is currently at condition orange, to quote Col. Jeff Cooper. and if you recall the time surrounding the F-22's IOC was under the jurisdiction of the "unknowing", who were themselves ignorant of the developing threat?

So yes, it does make sense to SLEP those F-15s and current F-22's, but those F-15's are approaching tactical irrelevance as the SAM threat ramps up, they will NOT be able to operate in that hostile environment.. While the F-35 and current F-22's will be capable, a Raptor upgrade holding the "high ground and high speed" super cruise will only add to our Offensive Posture, those new F-22s will be tactically relevant for the next 50 years, as opposed to the next 10 years!!

would you link a source to authenticate your assertion that we will be flying 6 Gens in 2028???

Many people talking about a 6 Gen capability, are talking about using the F-22 as the airframe to carry newer avionics and warfare suites.

 

[anzha]

would you link a source to authenticate your assertion that we will be flying 6 Gens in 2028???

It's in the budget documents. The funding profile for the NGAD matches the what was done with the B-21 and also matches the point (adjusted for inflation) where the ATF program was in 1987 or 1988.

In addition, technical risk reduction activities will be performed to include experimentation, integration and building demonstrative prototypes.

The total request for FY19 was ~$492 million. The projected net year (FY20) is showing a $1.3B request and a projected $1.9B in FY21 and $3.2B in FY22.

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The costs of the YF-22 & YF-23 prototypes are present ($691M each, 1985 dollars). Adjusted for inflation gives you a price of $1.6B each in today's dollars.

The NGAD is further along than people think.

Many people talking about a 6 Gen capability, are talking about using the F-22 as the airframe to carry newer avionics and warfare suites.

And many are talking about either something like a B-21 outfitted for air combat and being a UCAV controller or something between. A highly maneuverable fighter like the F-22 doesn't make any sense at all in the era of lasers. You can't dodge something at the speed of light. Likewise, something the size of the F-22 will have far, far too short of legs for the Pacific.

 

[Air Force Brat]

It's in the budget documents. The funding profile for the NGAD matches the what was done with the B-21 and also matches the point (adjusted for inflation) where the ATF program was in 1987 or 1988.



The total request for FY19 was ~$492 million. The projected net year (FY20) is showing a $1.3B request and a projected $1.9B in FY21 and $3.2B in FY22.

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The costs of the YF-22 & YF-23 prototypes are present ($691M each, 1985 dollars). Adjusted for inflation gives you a price of $1.6B each in today's dollars.

The NGAD is further along than people think.



And many are talking about either something like a B-21 outfitted for air combat and being a UCAV controller or something between. A highly maneuverable fighter like the F-22 doesn't make any sense at all in the era of lasers. You can't dodge something at the speed of light. Likewise, something the size of the F-22 will have far, far too short of legs for the Pacific.

You've made a good case for the "high end", hi zoot, tech marvel? a laser packing B-21, controlling a "swarm" of UCAV's, and that all sounds very "high zoot"...

but I can tell you for certain the Japanese are looking for an F-22 class 5+ gen in the very near future, no doubt USAF would like much of the same, one thing the F-22 offers that your jazzed up B-21 doesn't is high altitude, and very high cruise speed, the ability to be where its needed in a few hours, rather than days, and to attack, and withdraw successfully in the confusion immediately following....

The USAF remains a classic old school Air Force, the purchase of numbers of F-35's is evidence of that, as well as upgrading F-15's, F-16 to serve in the interim, the other factor is that many of the Air Force upper-echelon seem to be warming and far more vocal in support of a "Raptor Reboot"!

I for one am not sold on the tailess, autonomous flying wing, as the future of air combat, but things are beginning to happen now, programs that have been "idling" are being fired up and initiated, so I believe we shall soon see.... but 2028 for a 6 Gen NGAD,,, Wow! but then people have been saying the next generation of fighter aircraft didn't need a gun since?? 1953 or so, LOL?? so I'm not gonna hold my breath for either of our "dream birds"...

"and I DO Want a gun on my bird!"

 

[anzha]

You've made a good case for the "high end", hi zoot, tech marvel? a laser packing B-21, controlling a "swarm" of UCAV's, and that all sounds very "high zoot"...

What we get will be different than what most people expect. Lasers change a lot, even if they 'only' have a 30 mile range.

but I can tell you for certain the Japanese are looking for an F-22 class 5+ gen in the very near future, no doubt USAF would like much of the same, one thing the F-22 offers that your jazzed up B-21 doesn't is high altitude,

B-21 is intended to be high altitude. THe Nap of the earth stuff seems to have been dumped.

and very high cruise speed, the ability to be where its needed in a few hours, rather than days, and to attack, and withdraw successfully in the confusion immediately following....

That is true. Whether or not a high cruise speed will be as important, idk. I could see something like a suped up B-21 (or down sized) with the new adaptive engines for long cruise times or I could see a very fast mover alternately. However, there's no point in stealth then and that seems to be rather contrary to what the blue beanies are broadcasting.

The USAF remains a classic old school Air Force, the purchase of numbers of F-35

And they have started work on the F-35D, btw...so, yeah, they remain them.

evidence of that, as well as upgrading F-15's, F-16 to serve in the interim, the other factor is that many of the Air Force upper-echelon seem to be warming and far more vocal in support of a "Raptor Reboot"!

IDK. I keep seeing the Raptor reboot as DOA. Just on cost. The USAF made sure to rig the restart report to make sure the reboot was too expensive. With a price of $170M/each the new FrankenRaptors or 22Cs, if you prefer, are still DOA. It need to be less than 2x an F-35A. Significantly so.

"and I DO Want a gun on my bird!"

The 35D retains it, if that's what gets made. Even gets a HEL. And doesn't lose range, if the new advent engines are used. However, the deep, deep concern are the tankers. The KC-Z might even be stealthy because of that concern. Which will drive its costs up a lot.

If we can't get to the battlefield, we've already lost.

 

[Jura The idiot]

to keep this thread going (LOL) F-22s, F-35s to Fly Faster on Long-Distance Deployments to Reduce Fuel Consumption

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The Air Force's stealth fighters have been approved to fly faster during deployment missions in an effort to reduce the time it takes to complete the mission and the amount of fuel required.

The Air Force Operational Energy office determined that during Coronet missions—long-distance deployments in which the aircraft do not land—F-22s and F-35s can fly closer to their maximum-range airspeed though they must stay within boom limits, according to a USAF

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.

The approval follows an August 2017 demonstration, in which six F-22s flew a five-hour flight from Alaska to Hawaii supported by two KC-10s. During the flight, one cell of F-22s with one tanker flew at a higher airspeed, while another cell of Raptors acting as the control group and different tanker flew the standard flight profile. The test cell was able to cut 10 percent off the total flight time and 6 percent of fuel required, according to a

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at the time.

Coronet missions can take massive amounts of fuel and require dozens of refuelings. For example, when USMC F-35Bs deployed to Japan in

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, USAF tankers refueled the aircraft a total of 250 times, passing 766,000 pounds of fuel, according to Air Mobility Command.

The strike fighters flew without long-distance pods and had their refueling probe exposed much of the time, reducing their range. The January mission caused some frustration in the Marine Corps, with the then-deputy commandant for aviation Lt. Gen. Jon Davis calling for changes to tanker plans to reduce the number of refuelings needed.

 

[Jura The idiot]

kinda ironic
May 28, 2018
:

now noticed (through Rogoway's story

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) the tweet

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Nice work mil/Civ/contractors getting Team Tyndall “Alberto Ready”!!!

as now
F-22s, QF-16 likely damaged after Tyndall hangars hit by hurricane

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[Jura The idiot]

but I was looking for something else ...
May 8, 2018

dated 08 May, 2018:
Repairs complete on F-22 damaged by runway skid six years ago
should I perhaps say 'wow'?
source is FlightGlobal

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after I had noticed about Second F-22 crash landing in 2018

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A Lockheed Martin F-22 coming in for a landing at Elmendorf Air Force Base in Anchorage, Alaska crash landed and skidded across the runway, the second incident with the aircraft type this year.

The US Air Force pilot was able to climb out of the cockpit unharmed, according to Elmendorf AFB. The cause of the incident is under investigation and the extent of damage to the aircraft is unknown.

“We are calling it an emergency landing. Initial indicators are a landing gear malfunction,” says Maj John Ross, a public affairs representative with Elmendorf AFB. “As far as I know, there was nothing unusual about the approach.”

The incident comes about six months after another F-22 skidded on its belly across the runway of Naval Air Station Fallon near Reno, Nevada after a takeoff mishap. That aircraft was visiting NAS Fallon for exercises and was also from Elmendorf AFB, assigned to the base's 3rd Wing.

The recent crash landing came to light after post of a grainy photo of the incident to Facebook page “Air Force Forum,” which is not officially associated with the US Air Force. The incident was first reported by The War Zone.

The crash comes amid a USAF push to improve the type’s readiness for combat. The service has only 186 operational F-22s and has struggled to deploy and maintain the aircraft effectively, according to a Government Accountability Office report released 10 October.

“Availability was constrained by maintenance challenges and unit organization,” says the report. “For example, maintaining the stealth coating on the outside of the F-22 aircraft was time consuming and significantly reduced the aircraft’s availability for missions.”

F-22 cash landings are particularly expensive to repair because of the damage they cause to the aircraft’s stealth coating and intricate internal structure. For example, an F-22 damaged in 2012 when it skidded across a runway on its belly took six years to repair and cost $35 million to fix.

now I see I was in fact looking for Aug 23, 2018

oops

F-35 landing gear collapses after in-flight emergency

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but that's an F-35 "Marvel" LOL wrongly thought Raptor plus it's a different type of accident

 

[anzha]

Damaged is probably an understatement.

Tyndall couldn't have been more of the target of Michael than if someone had made a weather controlling weapon.

 

[Jura The idiot]

Today at 9:13 PM

now this:
F-22s, QF-16 likely damaged after Tyndall hangars hit by hurricane

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not sure why they just didn't fly them off

recalled Oct 8, 2016

then was unaware of Rogoway's blog post
Tyndall Air Force Base In Ruins After Michael, Fighter Jets Seen Inside Roofless Hangars

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this is [redacted] unbelievable, the way how the USAF handles Raptors, little to no upgrades, now [redacted] this