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Dragon of War

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THeMIS Armed Tracked Hybrid Modular Infantry System by Estonia Milrem Robotics.JPG

NATO started development of its "Armed Robots" after the effective success of their use in Ukraine. Training has begun with the with the Royal Netherlands Army with use of Milrem Robotics produced in Estonia. The Netherlands Armed Forces announced the deployment of four armed tracked hybrid modular infantry systems (THeMIS) unmanned ground vehicles built by Milrem Robotics, Estonia. The current THeMIS are undergoing trials to refine doctrine at the platoon level. Currently THeMIS systems can be equipped with light/heavy machine guns, 40mm grenade launchers, 30mm autocannons and anti-tank missile weaponry says Milrem, Milrem say this "makes them ideal for direct fire support for maneuver forces".

THeMIS being used in Somali with Netherland Forces.JPG
THeMIS System being used in Royal Netherlands deployment to Somali.


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gelgoog

Lieutenant General
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Nice video on the Polish K2 and other buys.
it breaks down the details and debunks one of the assumptions many make on costs.
The K2 is the least bad of all options available to the Poles. But I would not expect those 1000 tanks to be built in less than a decade. Their tank park is going to be a basketcase though with M1, Leopard 2, and K2. Tanks with different engines, transmissions, etc. M1 even has gas turbine engine.
 
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TerraN_EmpirE

Tyrant King
The K2 is the least bad of all options available to the Poles. But I would not expect those 1000 tanks to be built in less than a decade. Their tank park is going to be a basketcase though with M1, Leopard 2, and K2. Tanks with different engines, transmissions, etc. M1 even has gas turbine engine
You didn’t even watch the video did you? Clearly you couldn’t have as you posted so soon after I posted it.

first the existing Polish armored fleet already operates different types of MBT. T72M1, PT91, Leopard 2A4, A5, NJ, PLM1.
The K2, K2PL and M1A1 and M1A2 Sepv3 are if anything a consolidation. Two standardized system sets with high degree of commonality amongst themselves with high likelihood of modernization programs vs T72 derivatives which are pretty much end of the line. Or the headache of Leopard 2.

The main thrust appears to be to play Abrams models which can use the same engine (AGT1500 TigrIII ) and transmission in the eastern regions. with heavier armored units apparently to be partnering with AS21 IFV. This terrain is tank county. Taking advantage of the Abrams heavy protection as a Steel wall against which any CIS (read Moscow) could only beat its own brains in.

K2 seems targeted to the wetter western areas in there deployment scheme. With a lighter Borask IFV as it’s partner.

However the real crème of this isn’t the tanks, it’s the infrastructure. Even if the Tank isn’t delivered at a 800 units before 2030.
Hyundai Rotem has set to Tech transfer to Poland and establish facilities to manufacture K2, K9 and more. At the perfect time too Russia’s fools gambit in Ukraine has reinvigorated the NATO arms market and the alliance as a whole.
If we Look at Europe west of the Russian/Belarus boarders we see NATO states. In the North Norway a soon to be NATO member is very serious about K2N ,Look south of Poland we find Romania, who has been looking for new MBT. K2 was almost bespoke designed for the Carpathian Mountains for Romania.
Look around lots of NATO states that used to be Warsaw pact countries who recently donated their residual Soviet T72 to Ukraine. Now looking to restock nato style.

Sure they have some leopard 2, Challenger 2 or Abrams but those have issues.
Leopard2? The Germans have strict controls. You can’t add your own systems or replace parts without Berlin’s approval. Only one active factory in Greece produces at a glacial pace. So your getting old tanks with limited support and from a maker who doesn’t want any changes.
Challanger 2? Nonstandard ammunition requiring a new turret to fix combined with a very wonky power pack and it’s probably the heaviest tanks in nato with almost no advantage from that weight.
Abrams. Good tank, standard ammo, great survival but thirsty and heavy.
Then look back at K2, K2 PL, K2M.
lighter weight modern Nato standard. Hyundai Rotem by the existence of the K2 PL and troublesome Altay show they are happy to license customize and technology transfer. K2N And the litany of K9 Thunder variants show they are happy to customize. Putting production in Poland and Polish large orders means that potential European customers don’t have to wait long for parts shipment and support. Well also still being in a NATO state and maintaining a low price point via Poland’s PPP.
 
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gelgoog

Lieutenant General
Registered Member
You didn’t even watch the video did you? Clearly you couldn’t have as you posted so soon after I posted it.

first the existing Polish armored fleet already operates different types of MBT. T72M1, PT91, Leopard 2A4, A5, NJ, PLM1.
The K2, K2PL and M1A1 and M1A2 Sepv3 are if anything a consolidation. Two standardized system sets with high degree of commonality amongst themselves with high likelihood of modernization programs vs T72 derivatives which are pretty much end of the line. Or the headache of Leopard 2.
I watched the video alright although it was a pointless waste of time. I am counting the T-72 variants out because I think Poland will just dump them all into Ukraine. The T-72M1s are either mostly gone or all gone at this point already. And the PT91 will likely go into Ukraine as well once Poland has K2 or M1 tanks which can replace the PT91 in active units.

The main thrust appears to be to play Abrams models which can use the same engine (AGT1500 TigrIII) and transmission in the eastern regions. with heavier armored units apparently to be partnering with AS21 IFV. This terrain is tank county. Taking advantage of the Abrams heavy protection as a Steel wall against which any CIS (read Moscow) could only beat its own brains in.
Some steel wall. The US were crying about Iraq using RPG-29s on the M1 Abrams. Good luck against latest variants of Metis or Kornet.
For reference RPG-29 has 750mm penetration, Metis-M1 is 900-980mm, and Kornet is 1000-1300mm. Poland better buy Israeli Trophy APS for those tanks. Which will make them twice the price probably.

Hyundai Rotem has set to Tech transfer to Poland and establish facilities to manufacture K2, K9 and more.
I agree that working with South Korea is Poland's best bet. Plus if you are buying 1000 tanks it makes no sense not to have a local assembly line and get the relevant tech transfer and jobs associated with that.

If we Look at Europe west of the Russian/Belarus boarders we see NATO states. In the North Norway a soon to be NATO member is very serious about K2N, Look south of Poland we find Romania, who has been looking for new MBT. K2 was almost bespoke designed for the Carpathian Mountains for Romania.
Norway has been in NATO since like its inception. It was Sweden and Finland which used to be neutral.

Then look back at K2, K2 PL, K2M.
lighter weight modern Nato standard. Hyundai Rotem by the existence of the K2 PL and troublesome Altay show they are happy to license customize and technology transfer. K2N And the litany of K9 Thunder variants show they are happy to customize. Putting production in Poland and Polish large orders means that potential European customers don’t have to wait long for parts shipment and support. Well also still being in a NATO state and maintaining a low price point via Poland’s PPP.
So, how many Altay tanks have been delivered so far? Pray tell. And try looking at the current production capacity of South Korea to produce the K2. Then talk.
 
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TerraN_EmpirE

Tyrant King
I watched the video alright although it was a pointless waste of time. I am counting the T-72 variants out because I think Poland will just dump them all into Ukraine. The T-72M1s are either mostly gone or all gone at this point already. And the PT91 will likely go into Ukraine as well once Poland has K2 or M1 tanks which can replace the PT91 in active units.
I agree with this statement. Yet you seem to think this would be a huge issue. Despite the fact plenty of other Armies have operated multiple types. Including Russia
Some steel wall. The US were crying about Iraq using RPG-29s on the M1 Abrams. Good luck against latest variants of Metis or Kornet.
For reference RPG-29 has 750mm penetration, Metis-M1 is 900-980mm, and Kornet is 1000-1300mm. Poland better buy Israeli Trophy APS for those tanks. Which will make them twice the price probably.
Crying? Really crying?
Just about every MBT user better be looking at adding APS.
I agree that working with South Korea is Poland's best bet. Plus if you are buying 1000 tanks it makes no sense not to have a local assembly line and get the relevant tech transfer and jobs associated with that.
Okay.
Norway has been in NATO since like its inception. It was Sweden and Finland which used to be neutral.
Stand corrected.
So, how many Altay tanks have been delivered so far? Pray tell. And try looking at the current production capacity of South Korea to produce the K2. Then talk.
I said Troublesome. Yet again it doesn’t matter because despite the bravado the main threat State in Europe has stagnated. It’s stuck in a trench war. You can say Capacity. I can say developing. Because time is on the Polish and NATO side.
 
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gelgoog

Lieutenant General
Registered Member
might I point out that the Finns have had M270 for about a decade already.
The Finns had shorter ranged artillery rockets on the M270. The US would not sell them the longer ranged ones. IIRC their rockets had 45km range. Now they are buying the long ranged ones. 150km range. Russia should have pushed against the M270 sale because it would obviously lead to this eventually but they refrained from doing it. When the Russians have the time I think this will be rectified. One way or another.

I agree with this statement. Yet you seem to think this would be a huge issue. Despite the fact plenty of other Armies have operated multiple types. Including Russia
Most of the Russian tanks are based on T-72 chassis. T-90 is basically an upgraded T-72 with different turret. They have several different engines but it is basically the same V-12 engine with extra turbos and things like that. All the tank guns are basically the same gun with better or worse materials and same caliber. But yeah it is a mess for Russia to have different types like T-80. I never said it was a good thing.
 
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Sinnavuuty

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The rotational units of the US Army stationed in Lithuania are changing the level of military presence from deterrence to combat, said the commander of the Lithuanian army, Lieutenant General Valdemaras Rupshis.

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Scholz announced plans to provide NATO with 30,000 German military personnel from 2025​

German Chancellor Olaf Scholz announced plans to provide NATO with 30,000 German military personnel from 2025.
 
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