Euro crisis

bladerunner said:

and nothing, I was merely reply to Defts statement.... its just my observation that these countries with a sick economy don't lack people wanting to immigrate there while there does not appair to be a stampede to migrate to the BRICS. There will always be people that want the comforts that a modern society will give them, its just that a different model will have to be utilised to get there.If those wants are seriously curtailed then a manufacturing exporter like China will be in deep stook as well.
IMO these EU countries have been too wrapped up in protecting the intergreity of the Euro.perhaps it would have been better to let the Greeces and the Portugals default. Other countries have come back from that position.

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That's an incredibly simplistic viewpoint and ignores global realities not the least of which is the number of wars that produce immigrants, open borders resulting from the EU that allows passage between Eastern and Western Europe, economic agreements like NAFTA that has crippled the Mexican economy and forced people to emigrate northwards, and the fact that western nations have more advanced service sectors in education (for the time being anyway) that doesn't really have that much long term benefits for them now due to reverse brain drain.

China doesn't have to rely on these countries and hasn't for a while, China's economy has been increasingly turning inward as living standards and consumers are on the rise as well as minimum wage. China today is the largest producer and consumer of automobiles, which is a good example to measure their growth as both producers and consumers since cars aren't cheap or easy to make or buy, and we've already been seeing a massive decline in Chinese consumer savings from 60% to 30% over the course of this last decade.

There's nothing wrong with any country pursuing a modern living standard, they've already achieved it in HK, Taiwan, SKorea and Japan without having to reach the excesses of American and western European markets, who are fueled largely by debt as opposed to China that has the savings that can potentially serve as a real market with real capital to spend. So using the USA and EU as exclusive measurements of what a standard of living 'should' be when any sane economist can tell that its the policies that have brought such a standard of living about that have caused the problems we all suffer today, this was never a sustainable model.

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delft said:

I found the article in The Daily Telegraph on the European democratic deficit:

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plawolf said:

The telegraph is a notoriously right-wing British paper that have always been extremely Euro-skeptic, and is one of the champions of the group that one British MP described as wanting to 'f*ck Europe while it is in trouble'. As such, I would take what they say with a massive grain of salt.

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delft said:

For those able to understand or read German, here is an interview with Bundeskanzlerin Merkel in which she says that the "credit crisis" will last about ten years:

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The economy of the EU is about twice the size of China's. In ten years time they might be about the same size.

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Player 0 said:

That's an incredibly simplistic viewpoint and ignores global realities not the least of which is the number of wars that produce immigrants, open borders resulting from the EU that allows passage between Eastern and Western Europe, economic agreements like NAFTA that has crippled the Mexican economy and forced people to emigrate northwards, and the fact that western nations have more advanced service sectors in education (for the time being anyway) that doesn't really have that much long term benefits for them now due to reverse brain drain.

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You've made good points there, but you're overlooking the fact that during the 19th and 20th century (well pre WW2 anyway) a person could embark at any British port and disembark at any British port in the world. A fact which helped many people not just Asians, enter the Americas. Also for a long time now America has opened her borders to anyone who can meet the criteria, failing that people can enter the ballot for a "Green Card"

China doesn't have to rely on these countries and hasn't for a while, China's economy has been increasingly turning inward as living standards and consumers are on the rise as well as minimum wage. China today is the largest producer and consumer of automobiles, which is a good example to measure their growth as both producers and consumers since cars aren't cheap or easy to make or buy, and we've already been seeing a massive decline in Chinese consumer savings from 60% to 30% over the course of this last decade.

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But wheres this money going ... consumer spending or alternative investment vechiles other than savings accounts. Topics such as "Will the 21st Century be China's" have thrown up many problems that are going to face China in the coming decades where a nation of savers will be most beneficial.

At this stage Im more inclined to think that any lessning in trade between the EU and China is more of a result of the recession then a desire by China to trade with the EU. If trade was unimportant, then why has she kept the value of the yuan below her true market value or let it float?

There's nothing wrong with any country pursuing a modern living standard, they've already achieved it in HK, Taiwan, SKorea and Japan without having to reach the excesses of American and western European markets, who are fueled largely by debt as opposed to China that has the savings that can potentially serve as a real market with real capital to spend. So using the USA and EU as exclusive measurements of what a standard of living 'should' be when any sane economist can tell that its the policies that have brought such a standard of living about that have caused the problems we all suffer today, this was never a sustainable model.

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Consumer credit has been around in the West for decades and in the West
it helps oil the wheels of industry and is part of the financial services sectors which provide work and forms an important part of the nations growth. Their fault was to let it get out of hand in the last decade or so. Futhermore it can't be repeated often enough, that this easy credit financed the purchase of Chinese and Co. products.
I thought dodgy and flakey investments by the banks and finance houses was responsible for the financial meltdown. Reckless spending by segments of the Gen X Y Z or whatever. was only a part of it.

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bladerunner said:

Player 0 said:

You've made good points there, but you're overlooking the fact that during the 19th and 20th century (well pre WW2 anyway) a person could embark at any British port and disembark at any British port in the world. A fact which helped many people not just Asians, enter the Americas. Also for a long time now America has opened her borders to anyone who can meet the criteria, failing that people can enter the ballot for a "Green Card"



But wheres this money going ... consumer spending or alternative investment vechiles other than savings accounts. Topics such as "Will the 21st Century be China's" have thrown up many problems that are going to face China in the coming decades where a nation of savers will be most beneficial.

At this stage Im more inclined to think that any lessning in trade between the EU and China is more of a result of the recession then a desire by China to trade with the EU. If trade was unimportant, then why has she kept the value of the yuan below her true market value or let it float?





Consumer credit has been around in the West for decades and in the West
it helps oil the wheels of industry and is part of the financial services sectors which provide work and forms an important part of the nations growth. Their fault was to let it get out of hand in the last decade or so. Futhermore it can't be repeated often enough, that this easy credit financed the purchase of Chinese and Co. products.
I thought dodgy and flakey investments by the banks and finance houses was responsible for the financial meltdown. Reckless spending by segments of the Gen X Y Z or whatever. was only a part of it.

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Yes and? The history isn't in dispute, but we're not talking about history we're talking about what is happening now, do not derail this subject with your meaningless side talk that adds nothing beyond what everyone here already knows.

The Yuan has gradually gained value over the last decade, something close to 40% gain in appreciation, China is still underdeveloped in many parts of the west as part of policies and long term plans that had been in place since Deng Xiaoping started the reforms, if the Chinese government had their way they would keep the current status quo going for at least a few more decades so that the Chinese economy can even out and the Chinese consumers can take more time to mature. The current issues however are beyond their control and both the US and EU are exploiting their status to enact their asinine policies irrespective of how this effects the rest of the world, if you want someone to blame for this crisis then you blame the Europeans and Americans who are in this mess because of their own stupid policies and forcing everyone else to pick up their pieces.

There's a huge difference between the credit and banking system before and after Reaganism came into vogue, where once banks acted conservatively and the culture in general was frugal, since the 1980s savings in the west have gone down to as low as 5% and banks have been fueling credit binges that only create bubbles and don't correspond with any kind of real growth, credit isn't the problem its the Donald Trump culture of believing that debt can fuel economies and never needs to be paid off.

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Player 0 said:

Yes and? The history isn't in dispute, but we're not talking about history we're talking about what is happening now, do not derail this subject with your meaningless side talk that adds nothing beyond what everyone here already knows.

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Pardon me, In the first instance, you decided treat us to a history lesson .after asking for some clarity........(quoting you)

" That's an incredibly simplistic viewpoint and ignores global realities not the least of which is the number of wars that produce immigrants,.....blah blah blah........."

when all I implied .....was that, to a lot of people, a country being 1st or3rd/or 5th/6th/ 7 th or whatever wasn't important in the sense that it wasn't going to let it stop them from immigrating to their chosen destination. Or aspire to the "American Dream."

The Yuan has gradually gained value over the last decade, something close to 40% gain in appreciation, China is still underdeveloped in many parts of the west as part of policies and long term plans that had been in place since Deng Xiaoping started the reforms, if the Chinese government had their way they would keep the current status quo going for at least a few more decades so that the Chinese economy can even out and the Chinese consumers can take more time to mature. The current issues however are beyond their control and both the US and EU are exploiting their status to enact their asinine policies irrespective of how this effects the rest of the world, if you want someone to blame for this crisis then you blame the Europeans and Americans who are in this mess because of their own stupid policies and forcing everyone else to pick up their pieces.

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so what......its still undervalued perhaps to help its exports eh.

Look you made this claim that China was no longer reliant upon exporting to the Euro Zone but have provided nothing to support such a view.

In fact your POV have been expressed in more ways than one in a variety of threads and it merely confirms that you are essentially against Chinese involvement whatever the consequences. Fair enough.

There's a huge difference between the credit and banking system before and after Reaganism came into vogue, where once banks acted conservatively and the culture in general was frugal, since the 1980s savings in the west have gone down to as low as 5% and banks have been fueling credit binges that only create bubbles and don't correspond with any kind of real growth, credit isn't the problem its the Donald Trump culture of believing that debt can fuel economies and never needs to be paid off.

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Ho Hum. Look I had already acknowledged profligate spending in my first reply to you

"There will always be people that want the comforts that a modern society will give them, its just that a different model will have to be utilised to get there."

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bladerunner said:

Player 0 said:

Pardon me, In the first instance, you decided treat us to a history lesson .after asking for some clarity........(quoting you)

" That's an incredibly simplistic viewpoint and ignores global realities not the least of which is the number of wars that produce immigrants,.....blah blah blah........."

when all I implied .....was that, to a lot of people, a country being 1st or3rd/or 5th/6th/ 7 th or whatever wasn't important in the sense that it wasn't going to let it stop them from immigrating to their chosen destination. Or aspire to the "American Dream."

so what......its still undervalued perhaps to help its exports eh.

Look you made this claim that China was no longer reliant upon exporting to the Euro Zone but have provided nothing to support such a view.

In fact your POV have been expressed in more ways than one in a variety of threads and it merely confirms that you are essentially against Chinese involvement whatever the consequences. Fair enough.




Ho Hum. Look I had already acknowledged profligate spending in my first reply to you

"There will always be people that want the comforts that a modern society will give them, its just that a different model will have to be utilised to get there."

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Everything I mentioned is happening now and happening in the 21st century, not the 19th or 20th which you said.

So it means that it has grown in value and is actually part of Chinese policy to actually make it a viable global currency in the future, just in the long term future. Of course the loss of exports will hurt, the situation we're in now is hurting, all the more reason to treat to the EU with skepticism and scorn for essentially abusing their position and believing themselves an integral institution to the world and using that to get their way, when in reality this is a system based on consent, the world consents to using their fiat currency on the grounds that they keep their economies productive and valuable.

And? Like I said there's a huge difference between normal pre-reagan era consumer credit and what we have now as essentially an economy based on Trump style of profligacy. You can't just get something for nothing, this is a system that is inherently exploitative and lopsided to both the Chinese and the west and only benefits corporations who want to maximize profits with little cost to themselves.

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Player 0 said:

Everything I mentioned is happening now and happening in the 21st century, not the 19th or 20th which you said.

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But you do make reference to the 20th C.

1/You talk of the consumer society pre Regan
2/ Explaining the ability of people to cross borders in the Euro Zone. Well the Eurozone is really the successor to the ECCas i think it was known in the 60's and the fall of the Soviet Block in 1990's expanded it even futher.
never mind though , as its irrelevant to the current situation i suggest we drop it.

So it means that it has grown in value and is actually part of Chinese policy to actually make it a viable global currency in the future, just in the long term future. Of course the loss of exports will hurt, the situation we're in now is hurting, all the more reason to treat to the EU with skepticism and scorn for essentially abusing their position and believing themselves an integral institution to the world and using that to get their way, when in reality this is a system based on consent, the world consents to using their fiat currency on the grounds that they keep their economies productive and valuable.

And? Like I said there's a huge difference between normal pre-reagan era consumer credit and what we have now as essentially an economy based on Trump style of profligacy. You can't just get something for nothing, this is a system that is inherently exploitative and lopsided to both the Chinese and the west and only benefits corporations who want to maximize profits with little cost to themselves.

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I really dont know why we are debating this for as Im in total agreement with you. Even the point that it sucks to even entertain the thought of bailing out the West especially if nothing is really going to change.
Where we disagree is the fall out, while you think its manageable I have my doubts.

I think the Eurozone will bounce back and still be a major player in the world economy A snub may result in a fortress Europe mentality where Chinese products may not be so welcome. AS you said earlier China has still has a lot to accomplish, and its going to take every dollar she can earn.

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