Espionage involving China

TerraN_EmpirE said:

Thank you for proving my point.
Every nation Spy's on others Even allies.

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Yeah but so far ONLY the US is making a public spectacle out of it, why's that? Answer: soft power. It is what it is, it's power is on making the first noise, but it's weakness is that it is soft because it can't hold water to every claim when confronted by another POV. Therefore, the US is relying on soft power as their current option to combat foreign espionage of all kind.

TerraN_EmpirE said:

Thank you for proving my point.
Every nation Spy's on others Even allies.

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Only US tend to claim the moral high ground and lecturing others while itself does the same.

Speaking for myself, I have no problem with nations spy on each other as they have been doing since the dawn of history.

However, publicly and hypocritically chastising a fellow nation for a conduct that US itself is currently committing on massive scale both internationally and domestically is unbecoming for the country long claims to be the shining example of superior leadership.

justadude said:

Yeah, and the Americans are really good at it, just ask Germany, Brazil, Mexico, etc.

German fury as US deny Merkel phone hacking | Mail Online
NSA Hacked Email Account of Mexican President - Spiegel
The NSA Has Hacked Mexican and Brazilian Government Email For Years - gizmodo.com
NSA accused of spying on Brazilian oil company Petrobras - theguardian.com

The point is, why cry about it when everyone does it. You don't see the Chinese govt issuing arrest warrants on the NSA, do you? Btw, aside from the obvious hypocrisy, how will the US govt arrest these PLA officers? Is it going to be like what the IRS do with some of the swiss bankers when they travel overseas? It seems more like a dog and pony show for public consumption.

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A possible reason why the US chose to indict the Chinese was because it makes the US claim seem more "legitimate", if not to PRC-containment lobbyists then to the masses. That would be the first time the United States have filed criminal cases regarding foreign nationals for cyber-warfare, and indeed from a civilian standpoint it would seem that the report would be a good indicator of the so-called heinous crimes done by the Chinese. From what I can deduce from the article, what the Chinese did, if indeed true, were not much different from US surveillance of Chinese telecom and broadband corporations. A couple of years back General Martin Dempsey openly admitted that the United States engages in cyber attacks against other nations as well. Furthermore, an unofficial Chinese claim stated that the United States hacks China a lot more than the other way around. The United States, in the light of this information, really does not have an right to hold others accountable for something it itself frequently partakes in. However hypocritical the US claims might be, those criminal charges filed by the United States would still allow Congressmen to enact laws to further push the Asia-pivot or something similar in nature, but this time around they would actually have something "solid" to base their rationale upon, that being the "legitimate" criminal case.

BTW, the accusation is nothing but a publicity and perhaps political stunt. Nobody expects the accused to be actually arrested, but the fact that they are now on the "black list" would give the American accusations a little boost in legitimacy amid the vast discontent towards American finger-pointing (even amongst US allies), and perhaps a little nodding of heads from hawkish lobbyists in Congress. Put simply, the United States is trying to override the distrust between itself and its allies which it also tried to hack.

It's the same fiasco as the Spanish call for Jiang Zemin's arrest.

TerraN_EmpirE said:

The DOJ is pressing because,
1) the individuals are Military Hackers not civilians.
2) the Agencies they were operating on behalf of are State owned.
3) Alcoa, Us steel and Westinghouse are US military suppliers and there products may contain sensitive materials




finally my statement is that his is not a Isolated incident and there has been a spy war going back and forth across the Pacific for decades, The personal Tablet is just the new Cloak and dagger. The PRC will try and brush it off as American lies an load up on the Snowden Affair. Like Putin did When Snowden called in on a Russian TV show with a loaded Question to try and pin the new Czar only to be Brushed off in a Propaganda Coup.
The Classic rule of thumb when caught with your hand in the cookie jar. Denies, Denies and then Counter Accusation

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Exactly what the DOJ is doing with these accusations, especially when considering that the US would really be the first nation to file criminal complaints against foreigners living in another country regarding cyber issues. Another possible motivation behind this move would be that if the United States government makes the initial accusation, any further rebuttals from the Chinese would automatically appear to the American public to be feeble "propaganda" attempts to mitigate the discovery of their "crimes".

China Central Government Banned Usage of Window 8 Operating Systems May 16, 2014

中央机关采购计算机禁止安装Win8系统


小 大 打印
2014-05-20 11:16:57 羊城晚报 参与评论(145)人

中国政府采购网上周发布《关于进行信息类协议供货强制节能产品补充招标的通知》(以下简称《通知》)规范政府采购行为。通知要求所有计算机类产品不允许安装Windows 8操作系统。

以下为通知全文：

本期协议供货强制节能产品品目将进行补充招标：具体情况如下：

1、招标品目包括便携式计算机、平板电脑、台式计算机、一体机、激光打印机、平推打印机、滚筒打印机等7个品目，每个品牌的投报产品款数见附件。

2、所有投报产品型号须与最新一期节能清单产品型号完全一致(节能清单中有详细配置的，配置须完全一致)。




3、所有投标产品须提供主流电商销售地址，市场上无完全一致型号的，需提供一款同系列同配置(或略低于投报产品配置)的产品销售网址。投标产品投标价格不得高于电商销售价格(操作系统原因导致价格高于电商售价的，请说明操作系统导致的价格变化，扣除操作系统导致的价格变化后，价格不得高于电商销售价格)。

4、入围产品产生后会进行产品替换，现有入围产品如需继续销售也须进行填报。

5、所有计算机类产品不允许安装Windows 8操作系统。

6、网上投标系统开放时间为2014年5月20日14:00-5月23日17:00，请相关供应商准时登录投标系统进行资格申请和产品提交。

7、入围产品将在采购中心网上商城进行销售，中标供应商须配合相关工作。

联系人：周凯 55601753

中央国家机关政府采购中心

2014年5月16日

Auto Translation:




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2014-05-20 11:16:57 Yangcheng Evening News to comment on ( 145 ) people

Chinese government procurement online week released the "information such agreements to supply supplementary energy-saving products mandatory tender notice" (hereinafter referred to as "Notice") regulating government procurement behavior. Notification requirements for all computer products are not allowed to install Windows 8 operating system.

The following is the full text of the notification:

The current agreement to supply energy-saving products mandatory items will be supplemented tender: details are as follows:

1, the tender items including portable computers, tablet PCs, desktop computers, one machine, laser printers, flat push 7 items printers, printer drum, etc., each brand-reported the number of product models in the annex.

2, All-reported product model to be fully consistent with the latest list of energy-saving product model (a detailed list of energy-saving configuration, the configuration must be exactly the same).




3, all bidders must provide mainstream products sell electricity address, the market is not exactly the same model, the need for a series with the same configuration (or slightly below-reported product configuration) product sales website. Tender bid price shall not exceed the product sell electricity price (the price is higher than the operating system causes the price of electricity providers, please indicate price changes caused by the operating system, after deducting price changes caused by the operating system, the price shall not be higher than the sales of electricity suppliers price).

4, will replace the product produced finalists, finalists need to continue existing sales must also be reported.

5, all computer products are not allowed to install Windows 8 operating system.

6, online bidding system is open from May 20, 2014 May 23 14:00-5 17:00 suppliers on time, please login bidding systems and products eligible for submission.

7, the finalists will be sourcing center for sale online store, the successful supplier shall coordinate related work.

Contact: Zhou Kai 55601753

Central state organs of government procurement center

May 16, 2014

Another piece of Hollywood from the R U Shaw production company.

I say look at the what and look at the why.
The line from the US DoJ is that this is different because this is state apparatus involved in commercial espionage. This is the what and I say that this is a not so clever wheeze from the lawyers based on the difference between structures in the US and PRC.
Why would the Chinese State wish to spy on companies? Because China has a lot of SOE's and these are still counted as part of the State and so Industrial espionage becomes a state interest.
In the US, the demarcation between State and Private is more emphasised. I would however not be surprised to learn that a revolving door exists for personnel between the US State Cyber Espionage groups of the FBI, CIA, NSA etc and a myriad of private corporate, research/security/cyber security firms, which do the Commercial Espionage.

More interesting I suspect is the why? More specifically why now?
Well Mr Putin has just flown in with a large number of deals to be signed and I think somebody is trying to signal their displeasure at the prospect and indicating consequences in both the immediate and short to medium term.

the irony is that amreica has filed charges against the five guys with their names and pictures, accusing them involved in espionage, and those five guys are supposed to be PLA's intelligence agents. if america is not involved in espionage, how do they know that?

another round of cheap anti china propaganda from the united states. this just illustrates that when it comes to china, the US will spare no effort just to score a cheap shot. no trick is too low, no method is too dirty or disgraceful. interestingly this comes right at the moment putin arrives in shanghai! what a coincidence eh?

Re: World News Thread & Breaking News!!

Eric Holder can show he is serious by extradition to China the Americans responsible for breaking in the computers of Huawei. But of course he can't do so because it is contrary to US law. Will he start a courts case against them in the US?

Re: World News Thread & Breaking News!!

Guys be adult's about this, Everyone is spying the real reason this is happening now is the Obama Admin is trying to send a message to Beijing that it's not happy about the events in the Vietnamese EEZ

delft said:

Eric Holder can show he is serious by extradition to China the Americans responsible for breaking in the computers of Huawei. But of course he can't do so because it is contrary to US law. Will he start a courts case against them in the US?

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It Doesn't Work like that and you know it.
it. In order to get them extradited the Chinese have to file the Charges and name names. You can't place a charge in the names column of a extradition petition. As doing so is like filing a Charge for murder against a "Murderer". Unless you place a name to the Charge there is no Grounding.

That's by the way is the reason the PLA will feel this the most. Naming of Names complete with photo's. IF the US just issued another statement claiming that the PLA hacked these companies that could be dismissed. but by filing full charges and demanding extradition complete with names and Photo's the PLA has been placed on notice that there security is weak. It means there hackers have been Identified and either there system has been back tracked or they have a leak.

Holder has to know unless he is a complete Moron that the PLA will shot back with claims of Propaganda. The PLA has become under the current leadership one of the most powerful players in the governing of the PRC and would never allow it's officers to be Extradited. but by naming names and photos the PLA now has mole hunts and back doors hidden in all it's systems. it's upped the anti in the game.