Effectiveness of China's Air Defence?

siegecrossbow

General
Staff member
Super Moderator
The same basis plawolf used to come to the conclusion that it would take 11 carrier groups to beat China. Which somehow you did not question.....

Considering the fact that 6 cvgs were used in the first Gulf War, I don't think it would do justice for China if the U.S. only use two.

Also I think we are a bit too entrenched in the technical/tactical aspects of a hypothetical sino-american show down. What will America and China's objectives be in this hypothetical conflict? We can't really deduce who will be victorious in the end if there is no objective for either side to attain.
 

solarz

Brigadier
The same basis plawolf used to come to the conclusion that it would take 11 carrier groups to beat China. Which somehow you did not question.....

A carrier is a mobile airbase. How many aircrafts can a single carrier deploy? How many airbases does China have near the coastal cities? How many SAM defenses?

plawolf concluded that it would take 11 carrier groups based on the amount of air defenses and fighters China can deploy from the mainland. What do you offer for your conclusion?

Also I think we are a bit too entrenched in the technical/tactical aspects of a hypothetical sino-american show down. What will America and China's objectives be in this hypothetical conflict? We can't really deduce who will be victorious in the end if there is no objective for either side to attain.

Let's not focus on who would "win", but instead on the effectiveness of China's air defense. We all know that winning a war takes more than just airstrikes.
 

siegecrossbow

General
Staff member
Super Moderator
A carrier is a mobile airbase. How many aircrafts can a single carrier deploy? How many airbases does China have near the coastal cities? How many SAM defenses?

plawolf concluded that it would take 11 carrier groups based on the amount of air defenses and fighters China can deploy from the mainland. What do you offer for your conclusion?



Let's not focus on who would "win", but instead on the effectiveness of China's air defense. We all know that winning a war takes more than just airstrikes.

Well I find it a bit difficult to analyze the effectiveness of China's air defense without knowing the size and composition of the American air strike, which is determined by the U.S. objective. Is it a small scale "punishment strike" or something more extreme, like an attempt to unseat the government at Beijing? The conflict could involve just a few CVGB or the full CVGB fleet plus all American airbases in Japan, Korea, and Guam.
 
Pray... show us that figures... and the source for that figure. Plus if you want to cover a square mile, dumb and semi-dumb munition like rockets are enough to do the job. Ballistic missiles, cruise missiles could be used for more tactical role.

And if you still think that the idea of using cruise missiles and tactical missiles is to bomb an area only... then you seriously is no expert in military.

Not going to go deeper into this topic... as I will be off topic and I believe more people in this forum would be able to fill in the technical and tactical aspect of the ballistic and cruise missiles.

He was never even close to anything of an expert. No one would ever compare ballistic missiles like that, and he's the first of the kinda I hear such a thing. Plus, he's naive enough to think "he sides with the bad, therefore he's bad". Apparently, he doesn't have much insights to international politics, history, or anything that allows us consider him worthy of credible discussions so far from he posts he's made, other than that we can be sure he's been trying to find something to grasp onto to defend his American stance every time --- only to be refuted time after time.

I've almost zoned out his existence for most parts already
 

plawolf

Lieutenant General
The same basis plawolf used to come to the conclusion that it would take 11 carrier groups to beat China. Which somehow you did not question.....

That's plain ridiculous and shows you did not actually comprehend what I was saying.

Saying America can beat China by bring its entire military might to bare is as close to an undeniable fact as it is possible to get. It was to illustrate a point, not a prediction of how many carriers would be necessary.

Could the US do it with fewer? Quite possibly. But how many exactly would be required is not something any of us have any solid basis to conclude upon. Even the PLA and the Pentagon will have many wildly different ranges of predictions each.

Instead of focusing of the message, you perceived a 'slight' and then displayed disappointing but not unexpected pettiness and childish tit for tat. Please show a bit more maturity and grace. For your own sake if no one else's.
 

solarz

Brigadier
Well I find it a bit difficult to analyze the effectiveness of China's air defense without knowing the size and composition of the American air strike, which is determined by the U.S. objective. Is it a small scale "punishment strike" or something more extreme, like an attempt to unseat the government at Beijing? The conflict could involve just a few CVGB or the full CVGB fleet plus all American airbases in Japan, Korea, and Guam.

That's the thing, do you think the US is capable of "punishing" China with only a small scale air strike? If that was the case, then China's air defense is not very effective at all.
 

plawolf

Lieutenant General
The US pilots had much more flying hours, better training (not sure) and very much more experience than the China's pilots.

More total flying hours mean very little unless you have detailed breakdowns of what they do in those hours.

American pilots are now almost all trained for multi-role missions to make the best use of their multi-role planes. However, that also means that they are dividing their training time between multiple tasks.

OTOH, Chinese pilots are still mostly single role, especially for the main air superiority fighters. It could easily be that while American pilots get more hours, they spend fewer training on air combat than Chinese pilots. May not be the case, but its just to illustrate that simply taking total flying hours is not a very accurate basis to make conclusions upon.

Coupled with the fact that the US pilots will be piloting very advance F-16, F-15 and F-22... and in near future, they will also be piloting the F-35. China on the other hand, had the bulk of their air force still operating J-7 and J-8. Although the number of J-11 and J-10 are increasing, they are not near US's F-16 and F-15 squadons.

And pray tell where those advanced land based fighters will be operating from.

Any base those fighters can operate from are within range of Chinese land based cruise missiles. Any base outside of land base cruise missile range will also be too far to operate from to make a meaningful impact (air refueling is slow and can only handle a small number of planes, greatly limiting sortie rates, in addition, extended range operations will also put enormous strain on the pilots, especially over extended periods). In addition, cruise missile carrying PLA strike assets could also extend their missile reach to include all US basis west of Hawaii.

Oh, just another thing, it is stupid to compare fighters individually and come to any conclusion. In a real war scenario, those J8s and J7s will be operating with other PLA assets that will greatly help to limit their shortcomings.

The J8 is actually an excellent BVR fighter. It has a very respectable service ceiling and speed, which will give it a crucial edge in weapons range and terminal energy.

The J7 is also extremely dangerous close in, especially with PL8s and HMS'. There have been stories of them owning Flankers in close combat when flown by good pilots. While they may have trouble getting close in themselves, they will be operating under the support of BVR platforms like the Flankers, J10s and J8s, and quite possibly also JH7s with jamming pods. That will pose a very difficult choice for American pilots. They can either duel it out with the PLA BVR platforms, and risk letting the J7s get in amongst them, or they can divide some of their weapons targeting the J7s (if they can get past the jamming) and risk a much lower kill ratio against the PLA 4th gens as instead of firing two AMRAAMs at each plane, they are only firing one.

Oh, and the PLA can mix it up even more by using their J7 drones. Just send the drones in as a first wave to soak up missiles, and have the manned planes come in immediately after and face a much weaker foe with no loss of life.

J7s would also be ideally suited to move in and take out incoming USN cruise missiles after AWACS or other fighters have spotted them. This gives respite to the land based air defenses while detraction little from combat might facing USN strike fighters.

It would stupid to dismiss highly capable and useful assets based on a very limited and unrealistic expectation of one-on-one contests like some fairy tail throw back to medieval knight honor duels.

Plus does China had the capability to fight multiple theaters of war... in this hypothnesis, let say, Japan and Taiwan decided to join forces with US, in addition of supplying bases for US to launch their assault, they also provide Navy and air forces to the US.

Could China actually defend against attacks on both Fujian regions and Shandong regions...

And on what basis is that hypothesis based on? Taiwan would almost certainly sit out unless the showdown is because of it. They have the least to gain and the most to loose to get stuck in. It they were to make a move, their best bet would be to sit neutral during the conflict, and then declare independence after the PLA has battered itself bloody against the US military and is in no position to mount a successful invasion.

Japan is more likely to get involved, but they cannot bring much new to the table. Their air force and navy have very limited long range strike capabilities, and their bases are far from the Chinese mainland. Their warships might add a lot to the defensive capabilities of USN fleets, but not enough to change the general paradigm that if the PLA can find the USN fleets, they can put enough missiles in the air to complete saturate the fleet's air defenses.

China's navy are not nearly big enough to tackle the combined might of the Japanese, Taiwan and US.

It doesn't have to. The PLAN will play a very defensive role in any war. Their sub fleet will be the main offensive force, and will likely engage heavily in mine warfare at the onset of hostilities and then switch to ambush tactics.

The surface fleet will likely act almost as mobile SAM batteries to extend the threat zone further out and also act as mobile reserves to help plug any holes the US might cut in land based SAM coverage.

In this hynothesis, please not that with US fighting a war with opponent like China... I think they will have to commit quite a vast portion of her airforce and almost the entire Navy in the battle, and lets say that there are no third power ready to attack US in her main soil, then do you think all the other assumption of China's air defence are still capable enough to defend herself.

That say, however, I do not believe such incident will ever occur. This is mainly because of too many things to lose, the cost of that war will be almost incredible as compared to war in Iraq, Afganistan and other theaters.

Plus... a war can never be concluded with air strikes alone... unless ground forces are sent in and occupied the land. So it is kind of meaningless to just look at the effectiveness of air defences... what is more meaningful was to see what will happen after air strikes. You cannot just go in and hammer someone using your air power and thats it... then leave. Because once you stirred up a hornet nest, you are bound to get badly stung.

Which is pretty much the conclusion reached before you got stuck in.
 

siegecrossbow

General
Staff member
Super Moderator
and quite possibly also JH7s with jamming pods.

Since you've mentioned it I am wondering whether the deployment of electronic-attack planes from both side would negate the main advantage of stealth fighters (namely BVR missiles).
 

plawolf

Lieutenant General
Since you've mentioned it I am wondering whether the deployment of electronic-attack planes from both side would negate the main advantage of stealth fighters (namely BVR missiles).

ECM and ECCM are some of the fields most difficult to gauge without quality first hand SIGINT to analyze, and is also one of the most closely guarded secrets of any military.

The Americans certainly reported that they had real difficulty targeting IAF Mig21s that were using Israeli jamming pods. Their own growlers would be at least on par if not better. The jamming pods used by the JH7s are an entirely unknown quantity.

Its so murky that you can come to pretty much any conclusion you care to and no one will be able to positively say its true or false.

That is why I did not factor it in to the analysis other than a passing mention as it most certainly will play a big part in any real world combat scenarios.
 

ZTZ99

Banned Idiot
A carrier is a mobile airbase. How many aircrafts can a single carrier deploy? How many airbases does China have near the coastal cities? How many SAM defenses?

plawolf concluded that it would take 11 carrier groups based on the amount of air defenses and fighters China can deploy from the mainland. What do you offer for your conclusion?
Complete rubbish. I saw and you saw NO such analysis of the "amount of air defenses and fighters China can deploy from the mainland" against USN carriers. He offered his personal opinion and I offered mine. You should try reading more carefully before you start sounding huffy next time. Besides, he is now claiming he did not in fact claim that it would take 11 carrier groups to overwhelm the PLA. See below.

That's plain ridiculous and shows you did not actually comprehend what I was saying.

Saying America can beat China by bring its entire military might to bare is as close to an undeniable fact as it is possible to get. It was to illustrate a point, not a prediction of how many carriers would be necessary.

Could the US do it with fewer? Quite possibly. But how many exactly would be required is not something any of us have any solid basis to conclude upon. Even the PLA and the Pentagon will have many wildly different ranges of predictions each.
Look at you spinning and backtracking furiously. Yet here is what you said before:

If the US brings all 11 carriers as well as all its SSGNs and most of all its fleets as well as be willing to take heavy losses keeping their island airbases open, then they can overwhelm the PLA conventionally.
Most people here have a good enough grasp of English to understand that you were clearly stating it would take "all 11 carriers" to overwhelm the PLA, not that 11 carriers would overwhelm the PLA. The difference in expression is slight, but the meaning is dramatically different. You were clearly trying to imply that it would take a gargantuan effort by the USN to defeat the PLA involving most or all of its forces, including all of its carriers. Sounds like a prediction to me. Don't try to deny this, you're just making yourself look dishonest by doing so. It's not even a matter of differing interpretation. The interpretation of your previous statement is blatantly obvious, no matter how much spindoctoring you are now performing on your own words. And I'm clearly not the only one who took your statement at face value. See above.

Instead of focusing of the message, you perceived a 'slight' and then displayed disappointing but not unexpected pettiness and childish tit for tat. Please show a bit more maturity and grace. For your own sake if no one else's.
You mistake me for someone else. In actuality I perceived no slight at all and was merely trying to offer a counterpoint, unlike you who are obviously taking my statement as a personal affront, with both solarz and yourself jumping on my statement like rabid nationalists. Childish and petty indeed. Practice what you preach and grow the hell up.
 
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