Effectiveness of China's Air Defence?

Pointblank

Senior Member
Would you care to elucidate on what you regard or are referring to here as the latest Soviet Equipment?

The Syrians purchased in a major arms package the Tor-M1 (SA-15 Gauntlet) system, the Buk (SA-17 Gadfly) missile system and the Pantsir-S1 (SA-22 Greyhound) systems from Russia, along with significant upgrades to their S-125 Neva/Pechora (SA-3 Goa) and their 2K12 Kub (SA-6 Gainful) systems a few years prior to the Israeli strike. Not to mention a large number of 9K38 Igla (SA-24 Grinch) TEL's as well. This arms package also contained numerous command and control system upgrades, plus advisors from Russia to help train and troubleshoot.

It was reported in a few publications that immediately after the strike, the Russians returned to examine the systems they have sold to the Syrians with their teams of advisors. After that, the Russians began backtracking saying they never sold the systems to Syria in the first place...
 

HKSDU

Junior Member
I would say very poor, especially against an advanced nation that has learned a great deal or is a leader in electronic warfare. Since most Chinese systems today aren't that much more advanced than the higher end Russian gear the Syrians purchased, I would honestly expect the first few days would be utter and complete chaos on the ground while the Chinese struggle to reestablish the situational picture, and trying to communicate and coordinate with their forces through systems that crashed, hijacked and then jammed. Remember the Israeli's used elements of American electronic warfare technology to both crash elements of the Syrian air defence network, and followed up by completely hijacking the system without the operators being aware of what was going on.
Hijack China system? Don't think so buddy. China is one of the world leaders in cyberwarefare, and sure as hell would have top notch defence system for anti-hijacking. If it can hijack American systems, then it would know how to prevent them. Any nation being attacked would be in utter chaos, not just China. America was in utter chaos from 9/11 and it was just on 2 buildings. War is gonna be chaos, it ain't gonna be nice and organised.
 

MastanKhan

Junior Member
I've never read any Tom Clancy books, but I have serious doubts as to how valuable military information from the fiction section of the bookstore are.

Also, you have to remember that the US is the incumbent while China is the challenger. It makes sense for the incumbent to display its strengths, and for the challenger to hide its real capabilities until the right moment.

Hi,

If you had not read Clany---then my apology to you---you have absolutely no clue what to comment on---.

If you had read The Hunt for Red october in the 80's---the insider information shock would have really blown the lid of the kettle.

You may have your doubts----but the bigggest fear any govt agency has its secrets being leaked out by writers in the form of fiction----a book of fiction is the easiest way to leak out the secrets---and still keep yourself out of trouble.

Next time if you read a book of fiction---there might be some truth in it---because that is what Robert Ludlum stated---there has to be some truthg in any book of fiction.

Bottomline---people love to write about themselves--what they know, what kind of secrets they have and what kinds of weapons of deeath they have.
 

siegecrossbow

General
Staff member
Super Moderator
China may not be as advanced as the U.S. in terms of electronics warfare but she is no pushover either. As HKSDU stated before China is also a major player in cyberwarfare (you always see news on how the Chinese were hacking into U.S./Indian defense networks) and the U.S. may encounter a counter attack as it attempts to disable the Chinese communications/radars. Electronic warfare is one of the main focus of the PLA's asymmetrical warfare doctrines since it is the only way, really, for the PLA to level the U.S. advantage of electronics gadgetry. I think the U.S. will have more to lose if both sides were left deaf and blind by electronics warfare.
 

solarz

Brigadier
Hi,

If you had not read Clany---then my apology to you---you have absolutely no clue what to comment on---.

If you had read The Hunt for Red october in the 80's---the insider information shock would have really blown the lid of the kettle.

You may have your doubts----but the bigggest fear any govt agency has its secrets being leaked out by writers in the form of fiction----a book of fiction is the easiest way to leak out the secrets---and still keep yourself out of trouble.

Next time if you read a book of fiction---there might be some truth in it---because that is what Robert Ludlum stated---there has to be some truthg in any book of fiction.

Bottomline---people love to write about themselves--what they know, what kind of secrets they have and what kinds of weapons of deeath they have.

If it's fiction, and the technology is supposed to be secret, then how can you tell if it's real or not? How do you know which parts Clancy made up, and which parts he researched? Unless a reliable government source actually comes out and says which is real and which isn't, there's really no way to tell.
 

Lezt

Junior Member
If it's fiction, and the technology is supposed to be secret, then how can you tell if it's real or not? How do you know which parts Clancy made up, and which parts he researched? Unless a reliable government source actually comes out and says which is real and which isn't, there's really no way to tell.

I am also not a Clancy fan. He have a tendency of writing the battles and campaigns which the US is designed to and wants to fight. So his stuff, I only take at face value - sometimes how his stories unfolds can only be in a way which is so ridiculous that it is retarded.
 

siegecrossbow

General
Staff member
Super Moderator
I am also not a Clancy fan. He have a tendency of writing the battles and campaigns which the US is designed to and wants to fight. So his stuff, I only take at face value - sometimes how his stories unfolds can only be in a way which is so ridiculous that it is retarded.

Well he is an American author and a conservative, what do you expect him do? Design battles and campaigns that the Russians/Chinese/Japanese/eco-terrorists wants to fight? :D

Personally I think his writing reached the peak and Red October (which I think is quite good) and went downhill from there, culminating in the ridiculous political fest like the Bear and the Dragon. Interesting how Putin pledged the friendship pact with the Chinese a year after it came out.
 

Asymptote

Banned Idiot
China may not be as advanced as the U.S. in terms of electronics warfare but she is no pushover either. As HKSDU stated before China is also a major player in cyberwarfare (you always see news on how the Chinese were hacking into U.S./Indian defense networks) and the U.S. may encounter a counter attack as it attempts to disable the Chinese communications/radars. Electronic warfare is one of the main focus of the PLA's asymmetrical warfare doctrines since it is the only way, really, for the PLA to level the U.S. advantage of electronics gadgetry. I think the U.S. will have more to lose if both sides were left deaf and blind by electronics warfare.


The US / Advanced nations has more to lose if they engage in electronic warfare with China - as one US defence analyst pointed out : "if you are in the glasshouse you should not throw the stone first" - US is currently in COMPLETE reliance on their electronic/networked systems. Their space based communication satellite systems, the ground C4SIR, etc, are all all vulnerable to various methods of attacks. The US military has grown so complex in its own complexity, it CANNOT live without it. &&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&& deleted by popeye
 
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plawolf

Lieutenant General
Russian air defense systems are notoriously bad in terms of their performance against ECM. This is not necessarily because of a fault with the Russian systems, but may be caused by a wide range of activities.

The top ones ottomh could be:

- The Americans and West has always trained and developed their weapons systems to counter Russian equipment and doctrines, so its hardly unreasonable that they are particularly effective against Russian systems.

- Russia has not been all that picky about who they sell their weapons to. This has resulted in the US (and Israel in extension) gaining first hand access to their latest air defense systems, and so would be far better placed to develop weapons best suited to counter those radars and missiles. It is also not clear how much work the Russians put into making sure each exported system is distinct enough from others to not be easily compromised.

There would be no doubt that they would have taken steps to make sure the systems they export and those used by there own forces would be different enough that the West would not be able to get much useable information from access to exported systems to be able to compromise Russian defenses, but whether they go as far for all export customers is a different questions, and I have my doubts about how distinct each exported system is to others.

- Proximity and history between Israel and Syria. Israel is pretty much certain to have agents working in Syria. No matter how good a weapon system is, it will still be made useless if someone give the passwords to the enemy. May not be what happened, but it is certainly a possibility.

While all these factors would also apply to Russian missiles sold to China, Chinese air defense relies mainly on indigenous systems that outsiders would not have had any chance to study in detail. The Chinese also posses the technology to adapt and modify their Russian made missiles (they have been doing that since the Vietnam war to good effect), so even that potential weakness probably does not exist any more.

Just because the Israelis were able to such down the export version of Russian systems supplied to Syria is not any indication that they can do the same to China's.

It would also be interesting to know how the Syrian systems were networked. The Chinese have long relied upon hardline fiber-optic communications for their air defense network. It would be almost standard that such a network would be secure and isolated. That means you will need to physically access the hard line in order to gain access.

That is something we can pretty much rule out unless people start taking Clancy's wet dreams as reality.
 

siegecrossbow

General
Staff member
Super Moderator
- Proximity and history between Israel and Syria. Israel is pretty much certain to have agents working in Syria. No matter how good a weapon system is, it will still be made useless if someone give the passwords to the enemy. May not be what happened, but it is certainly a possibility.

Hey plawolf! Nice to see that you are back. Although I agree with you that it is ridiculous comparing China's air defense network to the ones employed by the Syrians and Iraqis how can we be sure that U.S. agents working in China may play a similar pivotal role before an air attack. Thnx.
 
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