Dong-Feng, J-9 and Co. - failed projects

adeptitus

Captain
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Gollevainen said:
2. How much did J-9 project benefited (or vice versa) from the J-8II project? Could these rumours of Egybtian MiG-23s be untrue? Is there nay real evidence of any MiG-23 ever purchased by china for evaluation purposes?

I think unless if we see a photo of an Egypitan MiG-23 in China, we can't say it's there for a fact. However from public data avail, it does seem that Egypt has supplied several soviet era aircraft to other nations. There's an aviation hobby fan who collects these data:
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Egypt has been known to supply Su-20 (Su-17M) and MiG-23 to PRC (1979), Su-20 to West Germany, and MiG-17 & MiG-23 to USA. The Egyptian MiG-17 is now in USAF museum.

If Egypt supplied the Su-20 and MiG-23 in 1979, and the J-9 program was cancelled in 1980, I think we can say that the J-9 was not based on the MiG-23 supplied to PRC from Egypt.
 

MIGleader

Banned Idiot
trkl said:
The WS-9 should be a little better than the R-29 since its a turbofan, which means that the specific fuel consumption would be significantly lower. I have heard that the WS-9 was developed for the cancelled Q-6 attack plane.



Both the J-8II and the J-9 seem to share the same type of intake that is used on Mig-23 and F-4. I have also heard that there was a J8III project at one time which would have had canards and FBW. There is probably some tech transfer from both J-9 and J-8III to J-10. Origionally, Shenyang(company which makes J-8) had control of both the J8 and J-9 projects, but the control of the J-9 project was later transfered to Chengdu (company which makes the J-10 and FC-1).



Deino is making a chart of all Chinese fighter projects. According to the chart, J-9 was cancelled around 1980.
attachment.php

what ws-9? this is the ws-6. the ws-9 is the engine powering the jh-7a.
im guessing the j-9 was a project for an advanced initiated in the 1970s, but its design and powerplant proved to complicated for china to handle. only after experience with the wes and russians did they finally manage a more advanced plane.
 

Deino

Lieutenant General
Staff member
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....:china:
 

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crobato

Colonel
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1. The projected turbofan engine WS-6 (in my knowlidge, never entered serial production) is quite similar in size and performance to MiG-23s R-29/35 turbojets and Viggens JT-8 turbofan engines. Could it been pararel-project whit the J-9? I've also heard rumours that R-29 engine was to be reverse-engineered in china for the J-9. As i'm not very knowing of aerodynamics, so have anyone any clue wich engine would been more "ideal" for the plane. Also whit the ideal engine, whats the overall aerodynamic capapilityes of the whole desing (Tailess delta whit canards, but NO FBW-system)?

My understanding is that both engines were certainly well beyond the metallurgical capabilities of China that time. Both engines have a thrust that is right in the same range as the PW F100/AL-31F but the design heritage is at least a generation behind. Even the R-29 was pushing the boundaries for the Russians.

Between the two engines, the R-29 is probably the most likely one, at least originally, and the WS-6 may have come later. At the time the J-9 was being concieved, there was an emphasis on high altitude, high speed anti bomber interception, and that favors a turbojet design over a turbofan. Not just the diameter is smaller, which reduces the aircraft cross section, but a turbojet is generally more efficient than a turbofan at higher speeds.

2. How much did J-9 project benefited (or vice versa) from the J-8II project?

Not much at all. Both were in fact, parallel projects. The J-8II was most probably the backup in case the J-9 failed.

Could these rumours of Egybtian MiG-23s be untrue? Is there nay real evidence of any MiG-23 ever purchased by china for evaluation purposes?

Oh definitely its more than true. For evidence, look no further than the Minsk theme park and the planes displayed on the deck. The MiG-23s are in fact more than just intact, they are in mint condition still sporting their Egyptian camouflage.

Could the J-9 be scaled-down version of the J-8II and thus having MiG-23 like apperance?

No.

Or is it more like that the MiG-23 features from the same supposed egybtian MiGs finded their way to J-8II project after the J-9 was cancelled?

No. Projects were parallel.

3. When the J-9 project was started and when officically cancelled? Some sort of timeline, and how well it was pararel to J-8II? Was J-9 project "live" during the flirtations whit the west just prior to the 1989 incidence? Could there have been any proposal of western participation on this project?

Started around the late sixties and officially terminated sometime in the early eighties. It actually started as a tailed delta---with aerodynamics that was ancestral from the MiG-21---then turned into a canard delta. At some point, the concept also changed from side intakes, to a square underslung intake, no doubt the inspirational basis leading later to the J-10.


Well there are many "could there" and "would there"s but feel free to give any toughts what comes to mind (no offtopic BS) Also why do we have to focus on J-9 solely? If you have anything about other cancelled chinese aviation projects, this topic can cover them also. I try to give update from my own research concerning the matter and perhaps introduce some other chinese fighter project lime the DF series or the orginal J-10 project...

There is also the original J-12 project, of which there is actually one flying prototype built. Basically the plane uses just one of the J-6 WP-6 engines, and is only a clear weather day fighter with a round inlet nose. But even in the sixties, a radarless day fighter only no longer has any relevance, so it was cancelled. Other projects also include the original J-13, which is analogous to the Mirage F1.
 

szbd

Junior Member
Thanks for the answers...

Now this Deino's statistic shows that J-9 was started at the same time as J-8 and was continued after J-8 had made it's deput filght. Also if the project was started by Shenyang, wich also is responsiple of J-8, then how can they be each others competiors...is Shenyang welthy enough to make "in-house" offer-contest? I don't belive so.

Both J8 and J9 started in Shenyang because that was the only organization capable for fighter design at that time. J9 was almost canceled just a short time after its start, because of lack of resource. Then there was this "great 3rd line construction", many industry especially defence industry plants were decided to be built in south west China. One of them was a new aviation industry plant, the division in Shenyang responsible for J9 moved to Chengdu as the backbone of this new plant. Then the real contest started.

This new plant in Chengdu is CAC, home town of J10 and JF17.
 

crobato

Colonel
VIP Professional
Could the J-9 be scaled-down version of the J-8II and thus having MiG-23 like apperance?

No.

Let me rephrase that. More like a shortened version.

The projects are concurrent of each other, and more or less independent even if some data are shared. Due to similarities in design principles and due to the MiG-21 influence, there will be convergences.
 

szbd

Junior Member
Actually the main achievement of J9 project was testing on a bunch of different airframes. Then China found out since she can't develop good engines and fly by wire systems, there's no way to match the top fighters in other countries. Then the project was abondoned.
 

crobato

Colonel
VIP Professional
Let me rephrase that. More like a shortened version.

The projects are concurrent of each other, and more or less independent even if some data are shared. Due to similarities in design principles and due to the MiG-21 influence, there will be convergences.

Let me rephase that one more time. I finally went to check the J-9 thread in the CDF, and lo and behold, I didn't notice it before, but there is a drawing of the original tailed configuration for the J-9.

While it shares the same configuration as the J-8II, it is interesting to note that the wing aspect does not. The delta on the J-9 is not as steeply raked as the J-8II, and the plane overall lacks the same sense of length.
The root of the wing is slightly behind the tip, to give the delta a slight diamond shape. Though not as fast, the plane would have been more maneuverable than the J-8II.
 

Deino

Lieutenant General
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Hmmm ... not real but a very good CG !!! :china:

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