Dog fighting not dead

IDont I know you have a lot of national pride, but the facts are F-22/F-35 won't be replaced until 2050 and S-50 will fly next year with SU-50 being scheduled for delivery by 2015. J-xx may take longer, but will definitely be avaliable between 2020-2025.
That leaves a 25-30 year window for these 5th generation fighters to coexist.

Idont mexico air force has 10 F-5 tiger light interceptor, thats about it. They are far from a force to be reckoned with.

Argentine has 24 mirage-3, 7 mirage-5, 13 IAI Kfir, 34 Douglas A-4 and it seems that super etandard was leased and given back to france.
As you can see they have weakened since the falkland war. Oh yes, the carrier veinticinco D' mayo has been scrapped in india.

Brazil air force has 57 f-5 light interceptor, 5 embraer erieye awacs (nice), 160 tucano prop fighter LOL. Real weapon include 52 AMX ground attack plane and 11 mirage 2000C. I would be afraid of brazil, if they had all this in WW2.

You may argue than F-5 is a good fighter, on the contrary no. It has 5000 lb of thrust on each of its engine with a combine 10,000 lb. Mig-21 has one Tumansky 15,000 engine with a top speed of mach 2.1 .

bd popeye said:

zhouj, IDonT is a long time member here and is in my opinion and others well informed.

I believe his point is how can anyone say aircaft that have flown zero flight hours be compared as 5th generations fighters when the PLAAF and Russian aircraft are still on the pervabile "drawing board". Fact is they cannot be compared.

True enough though only a hand full of F-35 have been delivered to the USAF and zero to the USN and others.

However 109 F-22 Raptors have been delivered to the USAF and two squadrons are operational. That is a fact.

Click to expand...

I've noticed that several "long time members" are less than apt at their analysis. Either way, it matters little what his track record when it's evident that he's put forth a highly flawed argument. He used the term "true" construing that the other fighters on the list lack the identifying characteristic of 5th generation fighters over 4.5th generation fighters. Each of those fighters will no doubt include significant stealth capabilities (again, excluding the J-13 potentially.)

Especially flawed is his assertion that they would be facing the F-22 replacement. I'd love to see a F-22 replacement in 2008. Or 2028 for that matter. Or you do really think all of the other projects will still be on the drawing board in two decades. The reality is that the other 5th generation aircraft will be deployed by the middle of the F-22's product lifetime, which has barely begun. It's also questionable whether the F-22 will even be deployed in significant numbers beyond the current deployment.

zhouj said:

The F-22 won't have a replacement for decades and if current reports are true, Su-50 will be test-flying next year. F-22 and JSF procurement isn't even remotely completed and they haven't replaced their predecessors yet and you talk about their replacements?

All of the listed aircraft will be 5G (excluding J-13 if it's just a stand-in when they fly if they follow the current specs) so please stop with the misinformation.

Click to expand...

The F-22 was first developed in 1981. The F-15 was put into service in 1974. The YF-22 and YF 23 first fle 10 years later. Do you really think the US does not have have in development plans for the F-22's replacement?

IF we are talking technology demonstrators, the US has have preliminary aircraft that have actually flown in the air.

X-36


X-45




X-47

zhouj said:

I've noticed that several "long time members" are less than apt at their analysis. Either way, it matters little what his track record when it's evident that he's put forth a highly flawed argument. He used the term "true" construing that the other fighters on the list lack the identifying characteristic of 5th generation fighters over 4.5th generation fighters. Each of those fighters will no doubt include significant stealth capabilities (again, excluding the J-13 potentially.)

Click to expand...

Aircraft classified as fourth generation jet fighters are those aircraft, representing the design concepts of the 1970s. Representative fighters include the "teen" series of American fighters (F-14, F-15, F-16, and F/A-18) and the Soviet MiG-29 and Su-27 and its derivatives. Its defining characteristics are great agility through high thrust to weight ratio and low wing loading. In terms of avionics, BVR and look down shoot down capability are employed.

Fifth generation have characteristics that include super maneuverability, stealth, super cruise, AESA radars. Russia has shown capable of developing 3 out of the 4 defining characteristics. China has none. Your J12/14 is still a long way.

No, the F-22 program was not initiated in 1981. In 1981, the USAF commissioned the need for a F-15 replacement in anticipation of Soviet countermeasures. In 1986, they sent out the RFP to the contractors with selection done in 1991. The first production-level model was flown in 1997. Deployment was in 2005.

So no, given the F-22 timeframe and the fact that the US is considering reducing F-22 procurement, it is very unlikely that the F-22 successor will see the day of light before Chinese and Russian fighters are deployed. In fact, if you had any real insight into military development, you'd notice that it's very political and if the Russians don't have a stealth fighter in the next three decades, any F-22 replacement is even less likely to appear.

@IDont:
ATF project got only finalized in fall '86 leading to orders for Lockheed and Northrop/McDonnell Douglas to produce YF-22 and YF-23 prototypes ready for testing in '90. Preliminary studies for the next generation fighter were conducted by the industry from '78 onwards but they were just that.

As for your nice pics:
Of course we all know that we will have to show some patience before the first authentic images of J-XX prototypes or technology demonstrators will appear. Indeed the entire concept of sinic civilization is not quite exactly about ´showing everything off´...

(... so there may be next year a new ´surprise season´:coffee

The US purchased 168 copies of the 100 million dollar F-22. It will purchase 1000 or more F-35A at 48 million, F-35b Stovl 63 million, F-35C 62 million.
If they replace all of these by 2029, than american tax payer will be up and arms.

X-45/47 UCAV are designed to be attack aircraft, that relies heavily on GPS SATNAV. They don't have air to air capability yet. All UCAV landing on carrier has ended in wave offs. Air force cancelled their UCAV program for a new heavy bomber. Air force aren't stupid, they don't want machine to take their jobs.

SATNAV is the most vulnerable arsenal of the US arm forces. China has done multiple satelite intercept to prove this in the last few years.

IDONT the J-10 demonstrator was fitted with lyuka thrust vectoring engine and showed super manuverability. Its 1 out of 4

I am happy this thread is taking off, but be cordial or the finnish inquisitor will close this thread and give everyone warnings.

IDonT said:

Aircraft classified as fourth generation jet fighters are those aircraft, representing the design concepts of the 1970s. Representative fighters include the "teen" series of American fighters (F-14, F-15, F-16, and F/A-18) and the Soviet MiG-29 and Su-27 and its derivatives. Its defining characteristics are great agility through high thrust to weight ratio and low wing loading. In terms of avionics, BVR and look down shoot down capability are employed.

Fifth generation have characteristics that include super maneuverability, stealth, super cruise, AESA radars. Russia has shown capable of developing 3 out of the 4 defining characteristics. China has none. Your J12/14 is still a long way.

Click to expand...

Fifth generation aircraft is defined primarily by stealth; 4.5th generation aircraft contain or are capable of being fitted with advanced electronics and super maneuverability. Let's quote the full wikipedia article you chose to plagiarize:

Because of the drastic enhancement of capabilities in these upgraded fighters and in new designs of the 1990s that reflected these new capabilities, the designation 4.5th generation is sometimes used to refer to these later designs. It is intended to reflect a class of fighters that are evolutionary upgrades of the 4th generation to incorporate integrated avionics suite, advanced weapons, and elements of stealth technology (but not true stealth).[1][2]

A prime example of this generation is the F/A-18E/F Super Hornet, a growth version of the 1970s Hornet design. While the basic aerodynamic features are largely the same, the Super Hornet features improved avionics in the form of an all-glass cockpit, a solid-state AESA active phased array radar, new engines, the structural use of composite materials to reduce weight, a slightly modified shape to minimize its radar signature, and IRST.

Click to expand...

Please be less selective when you quote and use slightly more common sense when misrepresenting your source's definition.

In fact, my point that was there was no way all the aircraft on that list would fail to be deployed before the F-22 replacement comes out. Tell me how any commentary on the J-12/13/14 disproves that.

"background info" : Us electronics and material engineering design had a significant lead on china and russia because they were either previously broke due to collapse of soviet union or backward due to cultural revolution. Now, its different. Russian economy is getting a boost from oil discovered in sibieria and china economy growth and western investment in its manufacturing.
The 21st century chinese and russian are readily coming to the west to get their engineering college degrees and go back to occupy high paying positions. The one's that stay behind are using the same textbook as american university.
This mean that the technology gap will shrink instead of grow.

The fighters designed by these young blood will be more capable than American give them credit for.

On the other hand, Republican has put america in a huge deficit, the interest rate increase as they borrow more.
Where is the money for air superiority fighter replacement in 2029 going to come from.

The more likely senario is that by the time J-xx come out, USAF has gain sufficient experience with their plane that they have tactical advantage over their PLAAF counterpart.

Look, I know what you said first here is likely, but there's always the chance of Chengdu blowing up, or worse, another revolution. We can take speculation, even darn true ones, so far.

And please DON'T bring in politics and the Republicans.

Sumdud

zhouj said:

No, the F-22 program was not initiated in 1981. In 1981, the USAF commissioned the need for a F-15 replacement in anticipation of Soviet countermeasures. In 1986, they sent out the RFP to the contractors with selection done in 1991. The first production-level model was flown in 1997. Deployment was in 2005.

So no, given the F-22 timeframe and the fact that the US is considering reducing F-22 procurement, it is very unlikely that the F-22 successor will see the day of light before Chinese and Russian fighters are deployed. In fact, if you had any real insight into military development, you'd notice that it's very political and if the Russians don't have a stealth fighter in the next three decades, any F-22 replacement is even less likely to appear.

Click to expand...

Correct, the ATF, the F-15 replacement was initiated in 1981. The fly off competition between TWO different designs (F22 and F23) occured in August 1991. The F-22 won that competition.

As you said, US defense procurement is very political and encompasses Congress, Defence contractor lobbyist, and the military. If there is money to be made painting China and resurgent Russia as developing an F-22 beater, it will be made.

In fact, my point that was there was no way all the aircraft on that list would fail to be deployed before the F-22 replacement comes out. Tell me how any commentary on the J-12/13/14 disproves that.

Click to expand...

Tell me again how long the J-10 and FC-17 was in development before it came into service? Even now they still rely on Russian engines.

The Chinese aircraft industry has made significant leaps in the last few aircraft cycles, but developing full aspect stealth, low intercept AESA, supercruise, and supermanueverability on a stealth airframe are still a long way.

By the way, I did not plagiarized wikipedia. I took the 1st and 3rd sentence of that page. The rest of the post regarding high thrust to weight ratio, wing loading, look down- shoot down capability was mine.

We are digressing on the thread topic, I'm afraid.

IDonT said:

Correct, the ATF, the F-15 replacement was initiated in 1981. The fly off competition between TWO different designs (F22 and F23) occured in August 1991. The F-22 won that competition.

As you said, US defense procurement is very political and encompasses Congress, Defence contractor lobbyist, and the military. If there is money to be made painting China and resurgent Russia as developing an F-22 beater, it will be made.

Click to expand...

There's more money to be made by portraying China as a F-15 and F-16 beater than throwing away the sunk cost of F-22 development; it's much more cost-efficient and profitable to portray there to be a significant need for F-22 squadrons because of the advent of F-15 beaters than there is to spend 20 years developing a F-22 replacement. Corporations don't throw away products; they milk them for every cent that they can. You have a very poor conceptualization of economic thought.

The point is that a F-15 replacement wasn't in service for 30+ years and that was at the height of the Cold War. Don't expect F-22 replacements for decades.

Tell me again how long the J-10 and FC-17 was in development before it came into service? Even now they still rely on Russian engines.

The Chinese aircraft industry has made significant leaps in the last few aircraft cycles, but developing full aspect stealth, low intercept AESA, supercruise, and supermanueverability on a stealth airframe are still a long way.

Click to expand...

You're comparing the development time-frame during the Communism phase of Chinese development to the one now? Are you intentionally being daft? Yes, aircraft systems are lengthy developments but no, Chinese funding levels are much higher and innovation is much more emphasize. Do you also like to feign ignorance of the WS-10A? They rely on Russian engines because at the time of design finalization, those were the ones available. It's changed. Now, your argument, again, was that NONE of those planes would see service before the F-22 replacement came out. That's obviously been proven to be an incredibly asinine and virtually impossible assertion.

By the way, I did not plagiarized wikipedia. I took the 1st and 3rd sentence of that page. The rest of the post regarding high thrust to weight ratio, wing loading, look down- shoot down capability was mine.

We are digressing on the thread topic, I'm afraid.

Click to expand...

Copying sentences verbatim is plagiarism regardless of whether it two sentences or twenty. Did you not learn that in grade school? You also completely fail to address the point that your own source identified stealth as the main characteristic of fifth generation aircraft.

Money drives the world and everything and everyone can be bought. It's not a question of whether China will deploy a fifth generation fighter in the next two decades, it's a question of how soon.