Dog fighting not dead

With stealth and thrust vector key innovation of 5th generation fighter dogfighting is clearly not dead.

Stealth on Stealth engagement can't take advantage of BVR, because no lock on radar. They again have to fight a close fight using IR missile where plane with thrust vector manuver for a firing solution. The nations with stealth will have air superiority and european union with their outclassed typhoon and rafael will be obsolete.
Typhoon and Rafael aren't stealthy and can be shot down by BVR, yet they can't fire back against 5th generation until they close to IR range.

Its like J-7 vs F-15.

Typhoon and Rafael are new plane and they will be render obsolete in ten years without a legitamite replacement.

The French does have the NeuroN stealth UCAV.

List of 5th gen fighters
J 12/14 by shengyang
J 13 by Chengdu (may not be stealthy)
Su-50 by sukhoi
F-22 by lockheed
F-35 by lockheed

Anyone know of any other fighter project by EU?

Well I dont think stealth is black and white. Its not a choice between stealth and "no stealth".

All fighters being made today have some different level of stealth. With an AESA radar, ram coating and composites, you are already a stealth fighter compared to classic 4th generation fighters.

Even F-35 has weak stealth from the rear side. Its not as good as the F-22.

Now we will have to wait and see how good the stealth is on Chinese J-XX and Russian PAK-FA. They will have to utilize a variety of techniques such as internal bay, planform alignment, internal cooling systems, exhaust and acoustic dissipation and more to be perfectly invisible at BVR ranges.

I don't think its going to be that easy. The Eurofighter and Rafale will still be considered good fighters for a while to come. And they will dominate 4th generation fighters like F-22 dominates them. They will have no problem achieving air superiority over smaller countries for a good 20-30 years. Only a handful of countries will have real stealth fighters in operation 15-20 years from now, and they will not be going to war with each other.

But you are correct, even today all the countries who would have bought Rafale or Eurofighter are participating in JSF program instead, so in a way they are already obsolete.

Google Eurofighter Typhoon and India Su-27 or Su-30 or just any derivative of the Su-27. There are fixed sorties or simulations between these two fighter jets. The results are not fully revealed, but to say the very least, the Eurofighter Typhoon performed well. Ideally, the Eurofighter Typhoon dominates the Su-27 and even its heavily upgraded version, Su-35.

Of course, this information is from Western Europe. The Russians will probably argue otherwise.

People buy fighter jets for multiple reasons: politics, economics, performance, value/cost, and other issues. The F-35 may be bought because of all these four reasons, not just for performance. For example, according to at least one source, South Korea recently bought F-15s because of many reasons, even though the Eurofighter Typhoon had superior performance. The F-35 is planned to be superior than the Eurofighter Typhoon and the Dassault Rafale, but that is assuming West Europeans do NOT upgrade their fighter jets.

Pak-FA and J-xx will be widely avalible, when they achieve full production capacity. Russia and China has no scruple about selling these fighters to Iran, North Korea, Cuba and venezuala. When these nation achieve stealth they are not going to play by the rules. They will use hit and run tactics. Shoot their BVR and run. If Eurofighter can't close to IR range who cares how manuverable it is its a losing proposition. Londo suggest J-xx isn't going to be very stealthy. Well, if china's J-xx can't achieve a cross section smaller than F-117 than it can't be considered steathy. We can only base our present assumption that China want air superiority over taiwan strait, and stealth is a much desired commodity by the PLA.
When PLA want something they usaually get it, they don't care how much money they spend.

For example, china was going through fammine when the PLA wanted Nukes. The national fund can either save a few million chinese from starvation or research nukes, guess which option they chose. PLA determination is extreme. If they want it they will get it.

No way that China would sell their new PLAAF ´stealth jewels´ for export... perhaps after a technological cooling off period of more than 10 years.

However China could be tempted to realign her weapons export policy to the common standards of the notoriously scrupulous US administration. In this case expect that J-XX's would fly on at least five continents in ten years time!:roll:

P.S.:
Selling stealth fighters to Cuba and North Korea?? Those comrades get some generous foreign aid checks and development assistance from Beijing but not toys costing more than 50 million $ a piece! (...or do you suggest Santa Claus has moved recently to Chengdu?)

cuba has the best equiped air force in latin america with 160 mig-21 including 69 mig-23, 30 mig-27 and 14 mig-29. Cuba is a big spender, who has been at odds with the US for 40 odd years. cuba spend 572 million dollar annually for the air force.

North korean air force is a bigger spender, it has 40 mig-29 36 su-25 56 mig-23
190 mig-21 plus the obsolete aircafts of mig-17 and others it number 1200 or more.
both country has bought R-11 archer and R-77 adder. its estimated that the air arm of its navy and air force is more than a billion dollar annually. It is still in a 50 years standoff with the south. put a few million people in slave gulog and starve a few million, the money will come in no time. They also had a nuclear enrichment program and ballistic missile program. It takes a few billion annually for a poor country like NK to get nukes. I don't think santa gives nukes for christmas LOL.

Iran and venezuala sit on oil reserve and also in a standoff with US enough said.

dh19440113 said:

List of 5th gen fighters
J 12/14 by shengyang
J 13 by Chengdu (may not be stealthy)
Su-50 by sukhoi
F-22 by lockheed
F-35 by lockheed

Anyone know of any other fighter project by EU?

Click to expand...

On your list only the F-22 and F-35 are true 5th gen fighters. The J-13, J12/14, and Su-50 have not even flown yet and will not be in service for a long time. (talk about counting your chickens before they hatch)
At that time, it will have to face the F-22's replacement.

Cuba and Venezuela are not even on the same league as the regional Latin American powers of Brazil, Argentina, and Mexico.

The F-22 won't have a replacement for decades and if current reports are true, Su-50 will be test-flying next year. F-22 and JSF procurement isn't even remotely completed and they haven't replaced their predecessors yet and you talk about their replacements?

All of the listed aircraft will be 5G (excluding J-13 if it's just a stand-in when they fly if they follow the current specs) so please stop with the misinformation.

zhouj, IDonT is a long time member here and is in my opinion and others well informed.

I believe his point is how can anyone say aircaft that have flown zero flight hours be compared as 5th generations fighters when the PLAAF and Russian aircraft are still on the pervabile "drawing board". Fact is they cannot be compared.

True enough though only a hand full of F-35 have been delivered to the USAF and zero to the USN and others.

However 109 F-22 Raptors have been delivered to the USAF and two squadrons are operational. That is a fact.