Does science mean something different in China?

I'm really proud of the knowledge my German grammar school provided me in many fields. At the same time I realize that I was part of a selected elite that gets a decent education in this country at the expense of many less fortunate being left behind. That often has to do with money to buy extra lessons for reproduction of current socio-economic strata. I'm a poor immigrant kid and never had that service, but mastered it on my own. This social class emphasis is increasingly changing into an ossified system that drifts from a division based on the real potential kids have. I met a many bright people who had a more arduous tour through more special secondary schools to get their ability finally recognized and be my equals in education. It takes a lot more personal determination to achieve something if your parents don't have a certificate of status here.
The French bac question look very intriguing at first sight, but knowing several French students, I'm a lot less impressed by their performance. The French are unfortunately even more stratified than the Germans with elite schools throughout, including university replacements. As a girl from such a school told me, university is below her, it's for middle class - she's born, raised and educated high society with different expectations in life. As in Germany, stratifications go along with corresponding lowered levels of educational achievements and the more levels there are, the worse get the lowest.

A school system with a selection process must offer some kind of fair achieveability to score. In my opinion, the Chinese system could provide a lot worse results if piano lessons and other goods you can buy affected the admission. In Europe we do admire Chinese versatility in math, they're awesome. Even more awesome is how well the Chinese visiting students learn the complicated language German with zero prior knowledge. At the same time, you can tell most Chinese students from first look, he/she's a douchebag straight from the couch, the way they walk lacks any sports experience - it's shocking. There are a number off Chinese sports "dissidents" who do or try at least, they're not bad, but they are a minority of the Chinese you see on campus. Critical thinking and creativity has a lot to do with self experience and sports are part of that. I guess that many of the Chinese students lack the same degree of experiences of themselves instead of following an urge for achievements constantly set by others (Europe is more on the other extreme at school where you have to be cool and in and not a good achiever, that usually changes at university).

There's a reason why a lot of the big billionaires never had or dropped out of a college education. The reason why is just like what they say of China is a college education teaches you work within the system not lead it. Just as China's education system needs reform, we should not be delusional into believing they got it right either. Let's not kid ourselves because think about what the West would be like if they didn't colonized and stayed home. That's the reason why they're on top.

A couple weeks ago I got into an argument with someone over China trade. I was throwing him basic logic and all he was doing was repeating what sound bites you hear from the media and then holding out his masters degree in business. I don't have a masters and I was running circles around him. He didn't need a masters to tell me the exact same things that most uneducated people rant about China but because he had one, that made him think he was more credible. He just repeated information he heard from somewhere else. He couldn't think beyond it. Sounds just like what they accuse what the Chinese education system produces.

I'd say that if Chinese can manage to combine the best elements of western education with Chinese education, it could produce a system better than any in Asia, including the Japanese for that matter, especially since many of the issues claimed to be present in Chinese education are also prevalent in the rest of Asia as well.

AssassinsMace said:

There's a reason why a lot of the big billionaires never had or dropped out of a college education. The reason why is just like what they say of China is a college education teaches you work within the system not lead it. Just as China's education system needs reform, we should not be delusional into believing they got it right either. Let's not kid ourselves because think about what the West would be like if they didn't colonized and stayed home. That's the reason why they're on top.

A couple weeks ago I got into an argument with someone over China trade. I was throwing him basic logic and all he was doing was repeating what sound bites you hear from the media and then holding out his masters degree in business. I don't have a masters and I was running circles around him. He didn't need a masters to tell me the exact same things that most uneducated people rant about China but because he had one, that made him think he was more credible. He just repeated information he heard from somewhere else. He couldn't think beyond it. Sounds just like what they accuse what the Chinese education system produces.

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critical thinking is difficult to train. Let alone Masters deg, even people with doctoral degs don't have this skill. I was a fellow in an NIH postdoctoral fellowship that trains both Ph.D. and M.D. together. I was shocked to find out how "trusting" these M.D.'s were when it comes to believing what the textbook says. During a journal club, we all had to discuss a published paper and criticize it. The M.D.'s simply can't understand why we have to criticize a published paper. In their mind, if a paper is published in a peer reviewed journal, it has to be the truth. It took months for them to finally appreciate the fact that no science can be absolutely right. Their medical school training emphasizes so much on test scores and learning from the textbook and from the experts and the attendings. The college students who can get in Med school typically have GPA's ~3.8 and above. In a way, the medical school system in the US is very much like the Chinese education system. This suggests that the main problem with the Chinese education system is fierce competition, not cultural. When the competition becomes tense, people tend to focus on things that will get them admitted and ignore other factors. And THE hard-core measure when evaluating a student is his/her test scores.

Also, when the competition becomes fierce, creativity and individuality are out of the door. I work in a medical school. You can tell there are distinct differences in how these residents behave based on the competition level in different departments. PhDs are the most relaxed and the most creative and fearless in their work. They typically talk to their mentors and bosses like talking to a buddy and challenge their bosses freely. MDs in departments like internal medicine would be next step down in terms their willingness to challenge the status quo. Those MDs in surgery and cardiology, on the other hand, are typically very stiff and behave almost like in the military in front of their bosses. You hear "Yes sir" a lot in the surgery dept. Everything has a protocol in the surgery dept and you have to adhere to it strictly. I heard a story about a resident doing CPR to patient with his head almost completely severed from the neck. With only a skin connect his head to his body, the guy was surely gone. However, the protocol says you HAVE to continue the emergency procedure until the patient is pronounced dead. Since the attendings had not pronounced the patient dead yet, the resident had to continue the CPR... Of course, this is a little extreme, but the moral of the story is that those in a fierce competition usually give up creativity and individuality in order to be focused and stay in the competition.

This is like when I hear people convey Asians are in general a phsyically ugly race. And how are they measuring this by? They're using Hollywood as an example of their normal and then look at the "worst" as the norm of others. If you just walk down any street in the US, you don't see "beautiful" everywhere. Like during the Cold War, Eastern block countries had the stereotype that their women were short, fat, and round. These days you can't say that. You don't see many weak, about to break, anorexic women from the former Eastern block. It's the same with measuring success from education. Is everyone in the West a Steve Jobs or Bill Gates? They're measuring the few successes with the average in the Chinese education system. When Steve Jobs died, there were articles about, "Where's the Chinese Steve Jobs?" You can have a Chinese Steve Jobs but he or she may never be known in the West. Really, would the West ever accept a Chinese Steve Jobs? All they would have to do is put out there in public that everything the Chinese Steve Jobs creates is a conspiracy by the Chinese government to steal all your private information. China is already producing and selling a lot of smart TVs for the domestic market. They're already moving into where everything in your house is going to be wired. You wouldn't know about this in the US because people believe the US leads and everyone else follows. That's why it's dangerous for China to think being a blind follower even in education is a good thing. When anyone tells me Chinese aren't taught to be innovative, I would then say, "What have you done that's innovative and everyone else is embracing?" That pretty much ends the conversation.

I would say each education system has it's good side and bad side.

Western education system is very good for people who are self motivated, who knows what they want to do or people who are just late boomers who didn't figured out what they want to be almost until they enter college.

Despite the fierce competition, eastern education actually tries to pull as many people up as possible through the different stages of learning.

I came to NZ when I was around 9. In Taiwan I am a black sheep. I get physically disciplined almost everyday. I have a special seat reserved just for me right beside the teacher. I don't follow rules because no one bother explained to me why certain things has to be done certain way.

Here in NZ I had no sweat all through to university. First year in Uni is where the culling began in western education system. There is no one to guide you, you are expected to figure out everything yourself, study for yourself. 20% drop out rates in first year and even those who barely hang on would not enjoyed it if you are not a self-motivated person. There was the cream of the crop in every year and the rest were mediocre even if they managed to get their degrees -> those are good for going into companies and work their way up from following orders to the T. The cream is what lecturers look for for the PhD kind.

I don't think I would have gone very far if I stayed in TW.

Good thing about eastern education is, even if they failed to make some people academically good, they pressed them enough that they don't become as much of a problem to others in society. If they have to go down, they typically self destruct.


And actually I think western societies follows rules and regulations more strictly and inflexible.

no_name said:

And actually I think western societies follows rules and regulations more strictly and inflexible.

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I think it depends on what kind of rules you are talking about. If it is something like making up data or plagiarizing, yes, the Western scientists follow rules strictly. The Chinese seem to have little regard for these rules and cut corners whenever they can. For instance, most Chinese colleagues that I've met consider the Metro Rail in Houston as free ride. In fact, you have to pay $1.25 for 2 hours on the train. Yet, it does not have any active monitoring system, but only self-pay stations at the stops. So most of them don't even bother paying anything. When I told my in-law about this, his first response was "if they are not watching, why should I pay?" That seems to the common feeling for many Chinese: disregard of rules and regulations. That's why there are so many fake stuff in China. However, when it comes to innovation and creativity, they seem to shy away from it...

vesicles said:

I think it depends on what kind of rules you are talking about. If it is something like making up data or plagiarizing, yes, the Western scientists follow rules strictly. The Chinese seem to have little regard for these rules and cut corners whenever they can. For instance, most Chinese colleagues that I've met consider the Metro Rail in Houston as free ride. In fact, you have to pay $1.25 for 2 hours on the train. Yet, it does not have any active monitoring system, but only self-pay stations at the stops. So most of them don't even bother paying anything. When I told my in-law about this, his first response was "if they are not watching, why should I pay?" That seems to the common feeling for many Chinese: disregard of rules and regulations. That's why there are so many fake stuff in China. However, when it comes to innovation and creativity, they seem to shy away from it...

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I remember we had this huge debate about innovation and creativity. I think we need to define what exactly those 2 terms mean, or we're just going to fall into soundbites.

For example, I've seen instant meals sold on trains in China where they make use of those heating pads that heat up when you bend them. If that's not innovation, I don't know what is.

Those are .

solarz said:

I remember we had this huge debate about innovation and creativity. I think we need to define what exactly those 2 terms mean, or we're just going to fall into soundbites.

For example, I've seen instant meals sold on trains in China where they make use of those heating pads that heat up when you bend them. If that's not innovation, I don't know what is.

Those are

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.

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Those heating pads have been around for a lonnnnnggggg time. We use it in the lab to keep animals warm during surgery. It's not invented in China. The one with the metal disc in the middle, the latest reusable version, was invented in 1978 in the US (US Patent 4,077,390 (1978)). Check out the chemical heating pad section:

vesicles said:

Those heating pads have been around for a lonnnnnggggg time. We use it in the lab to keep animals warm during surgery. It's not invented in China. The one with the metal disc in the middle, the latest reusable version, was invented in 1978 in the US (US Patent 4,077,390 (1978)). Check out the chemical heating pad section:

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I'm not saying the Chinese invented the heating pad, I'm saying the way they use it is very innovative.