Discussing Biden's Potential China Policy

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escobar

Brigadier
I disagree there, I actually think Chinese foreign policy should be even more aggressive and is acting too weak currently. The Anglo nations are threatened by a non-White country displacing them. Very happy with how aggressive China is during the Alaska meeting.
Yes, that's what I mean. CN foreign policy need more boldness and aggressiveness. For now still too much emotionally based.
This useless Alaska meeting can be a start but still not really impressed. We will see.
 

voyager1

Captain
Registered Member
Probably, but I see a lot of complacency too. Lots of people justifying every failure. I don't like how overly hopeless gadgetcool is but I agree that most actions the government takes are just somehow 100% always justified as perfect unless there is an OBVIOUS mistake that can't be brushed under the rug. This won't help now that it's clear Biden is taking an adversarial approach to China much like Trump, and China can no longer skate on by using trade as a tool to support its growth.

China dropping from 10% growth rates down to 8% was seen as completely normal and some even justified it as intentional! Many thought it would continue at 8% for 20 years so as to catch up to Western levels of development before finally slowing down, but no, literally the year after it broke below and kept going down.

Government then sets 6% growth rate and everyone eats that up as completely acceptable. Justifying it in every which way. Complacency.

Just 5 years before that 6% growth rate was set, people were talking about 8-10% being an obvious reality since Chinese will do what Japan and Korea and Taiwan and Singapore did. And I think they should be still, but everyone else thinks it's just not possible. I assume we will hear about how its much harder with a larger population or how the other countries were actively aided by the West, etc etc etc just BS excuses.

So then even by 2050 China will not catch up to 2050 Western European standards let alone US standards. I assume if Chinese growth rate drops to 4% and government insists it's ok for any myriad of ridiculous justifications the people will swallow it up. Hilarious complacency.

I didn't see Japans growth rate drop till it reached American standards of living. Yet people here will complain with more excuses, that Japan went 'too far' due to the asset pricing bubble that followed or again that it was aided by the West. As if the alternative is having 3rd world standard of living for decades (rather than extremely fast growth that causes some troughs but makes everyone richer, more advanced, more developed faster).

East Asian cultures never prided themselves on risk-taking or standing out, being creative, etc. The CCP stamps it out even more-so than the natural inclination, making the country even less progressive in terms of risk-taking than Japan and Korea (both of which have lower productivity per man-hour than Italy!!!). The EASY work has been done, now China has to catch up in high technology and overall productivity. And people assume the same catch-up will happen as has happened for the last 40 years with only hard work alone.

Don't confuse a large mass of population (1.4b people) + hard work ethic (natural East Asian trait) with what is actually required for future growth to be unlocked. China would naturally have reached the paltry Latin American levels of development it has reached now with whatever government it would have had (and probably even higher).

If China had America's population it would have a GDP the size of Germany right now, even adjusting for PPP it would barely be above Japan. The work that needs to be done now requires not just work ethic, or good state planning, or economies of scale. It requires constructive open criticism and risk-taking.

To conclude, I saw an article here posted about a Chinese private space venture and some people shat on it because the rocket exploded, just to save face because people from East Asia and especially China are embarrassed by any failures! While in the West people like Elon Musk are actively encouraged despite every rocket exploding back when he first started, and even now with the new Starship. And I see that even with Elon Musk with the multitude of failures the Starship test articles have suffered, people here still can't get out of the groove of laughing and making funny comments about how much of a failure these tests are, coming up with all kinds of reasons why it isn't working. If this is similar to the attitude the nation ahs then China will never ever catch-up till the West is a steaming pile of ruin due to absolute decline (from its own demographic immigrant problems) and not from China surpassing it due to relative growth.
Very correct reading of the whole situation but let me add some counterpoints regarding growth rates.

If China could allow all foreign suppliers to take part in their core technology space and then China became a fully vassal US state and allowed from the US then it could grow its GDP much much faster.

The way I see it, this 6 per cent growth rate ("6 and above" actually as stated from the Premier) is for leaving space for policy makers to invest in R&D and have their own core technologies to then later support the ecosystems built upon them.

So it is more of, lets stop building more floors on our skyscraper because our foundations are rather weak. Thus, lets focus more on the foundation, and later on build more floors based on a robust foundation.

However, as you noted, China must not rest and think everything is ok, there are still many major reforms to be done.

Legal System, Mature Institutions for R&D, bring local gov finances under control and stop local gov skirting around the financial debt regulations. Also, more transparency on regulation making, legal cases.And most important close the rural-urban income divide (started with the war on absolute proverty, but there is still work to be done)

IMO Xi is already working on a lot of these areas, however from an outsider's view there are still some entrenched interests which are resisting some reforms (i have to say though, that i laughed my face off when they pulled the Ant IPO and started all these regulations. Late action, but better late than never).

China has made a lot a lot of progress in these past 10 years and it must also keep it up on the future.

I already posted a link to the Global Innovation Index for 2020 where it shows the multitude of how China advanced in innovation from 2010 to 2020. I might actually make a more detailed post later or even a seperate thread to showcase some charts so that you can understand what i mean regarding China's accelerating pace on R&D.
 

AndrewS

Brigadier
Registered Member
China dropping from 10% growth rates down to 8% was seen as completely normal and some even justified it as intentional! Many thought it would continue at 8% for 20 years so as to catch up to Western levels of development before finally slowing down, but no, literally the year after it broke below and kept going down.

Government then sets 6% growth rate and everyone eats that up as completely acceptable. Justifying it in every which way. Complacency.

Just 5 years before that 6% growth rate was set, people were talking about 8-10% being an obvious reality since Chinese will do what Japan and Korea and Taiwan and Singapore did. And I think they should be still, but everyone else thinks it's just not possible. I assume we will hear about how its much harder with a larger population or how the other countries were actively aided by the West, etc etc etc just BS excuses.

Instead of focusing on the headline growth rate, I think it's better to focus on the implications of a specific growth rate.

At 10% per year, it means the economy doubles in 7 years.
At 7% per year, the economy doubles in 10 years.
At 5% per year, the economy doubles in 15 years.
 

AndrewS

Brigadier
Registered Member
I didn't see Japans growth rate drop till it reached American standards of living. Yet people here will complain with more excuses, that Japan went 'too far' due to the asset pricing bubble that followed or again that it was aided by the West. As if the alternative is having 3rd world standard of living for decades (rather than extremely fast growth that causes some troughs but makes everyone richer, more advanced, more developed faster).

Your opinion that Japan only slowed down after it became rich is not accurate.

After 1973, Japan's average growth rate dropped to 4.2% per year.
At that point, Japan was at roughly 60% of US GDP per capita.


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sinophilia

Junior Member
Registered Member
Your view of Japan's slowdown is not accurate.

After 1973, Japan's average growth rate dropped to 4.2% per year.
At that point, Japan was at roughly 60% of US GDP per capita.


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Japan was $425 billion in 1973 and $997 billion in 1978, by 1988 it was over $3 trillion and reached $5.45 trillion in 1995 (before dropping a lot and stabilizing at a lower number for years).

As a % of the US it was

1973: 31.0% of the US
1978: 43.8% of the US
1988: 58.1% of the US
1995: 71.1% of the US (peak relative to the US)

Source is UN data which might be better than a blog and an organization which is likely more biased in use of data than the UN.

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sinophilia

Junior Member
Registered Member
Your opinion that Japan only slowed down after it became rich is not accurate.

After 1973, Japan's average growth rate dropped to 4.2% per year.
At that point, Japan was at roughly 60% of US GDP per capita.


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I would also like to add a point, you just said Japan slowed to 4.2% after it reached 60% of US GDP per capita. So you prove my point. It only markedly slowed down after it reached European levels of income. It was already a fully developed country. China is slowing down to 6% (are we going to be told slower in 2-3 years?!) after 2 revisions down in the last 8 years.

Is China at 60% of US GDP per capita? No, it's not even reached 20% yet. And when you adjust to PPP the #s are still nowhere near 60%, not even 30%. So China is not following the Japanese growth trajectory any more. I'm sure the excuses from many uses will relate to bigger population instead of complacency and rigid state thinking with a never questioning populace. Population needs to keep government honest, not just about simple ass issues that placate the public like some idiot official stealing funds or showing off his Rolex.
 

AndrewS

Brigadier
Registered Member
Japan was $425 billion in 1973 and $997 billion in 1978, by 1988 it was over $3 trillion and reached $5.45 trillion in 1995 (before dropping a lot and stabilizing at a lower number for years).

As a % of the US it was

1973: 31.0% of the US
1978: 43.8% of the US
1988: 58.1% of the US
1995: 71.1% of the US (peak relative to the US)

Source is UN data which might be better than a blog and an organization which is likely more biased in use of data than the UN.

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Your UN figures show Japan as 31% of US GDP per capita in 1973.
There's no way you can argue that Japan was already a developed country when it slowed down to 4.2% after 1973
 

sinophilia

Junior Member
Registered Member
Your UN figures show Japan as 31% of US GDP per capita in 1973.
There's no way you can argue that Japan was already a developed country when it slowed down to 4.2% after 1973

Did you conveniently skip those same UN statistics I provided showing Japan moving from $425 billion in 1973 to $997 billion in 1978, 5 years doubling is 4.2% annual growth? Lol even with inflation and currency appreciation that wouldn't be true.
 

voyager1

Captain
Registered Member
Lol seeing all these people anxious about China's GDP growth. They remind me a lot of Gordon Chang.

China is such a huge country that I wouldnt bother too much about the national GDP growth but instead I would look on individual cities and provinces.

Then I would also see rural and urban population's discretionary income growth(whats left after housing, food,taxes, clothing expenses are accounted for)

The Chinese gov is not stupid and thats why it is cracking down on housing expenses. And thats why (partially) it is cracking down on platform pricing commitions and many other things as well.


The only "danger" for the economy is the local gov debt which has being aknowledged by China as the NPC's next 5 year plan characterised it as a "national security issue"

So i am expecting the central gov to turn its ammunition towards the local gov, and because of being a national security issue, the local gov wont find it easy to avoid reducing their debt
 

AndrewS

Brigadier
Registered Member
Did you conveniently skip those same UN statistics I provided showing Japan moving from $425 billion in 1973 to $997 billion in 1978, 5 years doubling is 4.2% annual growth? Lol even with inflation and currency appreciation that wouldn't be true.

You seem to misunderstand the stats.

What matters is the real growth rate of 4.2% in local currency, which is what determines improvements in living standards.

You can have breakneck nominal growth of 10% per year.
But if your inflation rate is also 10%, then you actually have economic stagnation.

On exchange rate appreciation, didn't you learn from my previous post directed specifically to you? I've reposted it below.
This is really basic economics.

Take a medium-sized economy like Japan for example.

Over the past 30-40 years, Japan's GDP has been stable at 500-550 Trillion Yen and their living standards have remained the same.

But fluctuations in the exchange rate meant the Japanese economy was as small as $4 Trillion or as large as $6 Trillion USD.
That is a 50% difference in the exchange rate.

And China is far larger and more self-sufficient than Japan is.

But yes, PPP and nominal both have their uses.
 
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