Destroyers' effectiveness against Supersonic or Stealth Fighters

bd popeye

The Last Jedi
VIP Professional
Explain to me how the F-22 is more "stealthy" then the F-117?
The F-22 has a radar, it's engines go supersonic which mean it creates more heat... compared to the F-117 which doesn't have a radar and it's engines doesn't go supersonic which mean way less heat than the F-22.. and also add in the overall shape of the the two aircrafts

swimmer..I wish I could remember all that I saw but I saw a program on PBS a couple of years ago about the development of the F-22 and they mentioned how the F-22 shape and what ever material it was made out of reduced it's heat signature very signifgently. this may have some bearing on it's total signature.

Finn, I think that story was a deliberte plant by the US. The use of that name was the clue.
 

IDonT

Senior Member
VIP Professional
Explain to me how the F-22 is more "stealthy" then the F-117?
The F-22 has a radar, it's engines go supersonic which mean it creates more heat... compared to the F-117 which doesn't have a radar and it's engines doesn't go supersonic which mean way less heat than the F-22.. and also add in the overall shape of the the two aircrafts

Lets start with the radar.
The F-22's uses the AN/APG-77 radar, an active-element, electronically scanned (that is, it does not move) array of over 1000 finger-sized transmitter / receiver modules. Each module weights ca 15g and has a power output of over 4W. The APG-77 is capable of changing the direction, power and shape of the radar beam very rapidly (called random frequency hopping), which is practically impossible for current RWR to pick up. The AN/APG-77 changes frequencies more than 1,000 times per second to reduce the chance of being intercepted. The radar can also focus its emissions to overload enemy sensors, giving the plane an electronic-attack capability. The result, an enemy will not know that the F-22 has a firing solution until the active radar of an AMRAAM lights up five miles away.

Stealth aspects

Airframe features
The F-117 is a prime example of scattering. The entire plane is one, large system of triangles. It has all flat surfaces, angled to deflect radar waves away from enemy base. The F-22 also does this, but in a different manner. It is fairly rounded, yet on closer observation, the over-all shape has angles to it that scrambles the radar all over, everywhere but back to the radar's origin.

The F-22 has a low height triangle appearance from the front. This physical cross sectional view ensures a small signature from the front and low observability touches such as paint and materials, as well as little "W" shapes where straight lines might have appeared, all tend to break up the signature by absorption or redirection.

The "W" shapes are found at numerous places on the stealth aircraft. For instance, in the forefront of the cockpit glass, there is a very apparent "W" shape. This reduces the radar energy reflected during a head-on pass to the radar emitter. The "W" shape is also found on landing gear doors, engine inlets and outlets, as well as other openings.

The leading and trailing edges of the wing and tail have identical sweep angles (a design technique called platform alignment). The fuselage and canopy have sloping sides. The vertical tails are canted. The engine face is deeply hidden by a serpentine inlet duct and weapons are carried internally.

Engine nozzles
Reduction of radar cross section of nozzles Is also very important, and is complicated by high material temperatures. The approach taken at Lockheed is to use ceramic materials. The ceramics may be either lightweight, parasitic sheets mounted on conventional nozzle structures or heavier structural materials forming saw-toothed edges.

Cockpit
The pilot's head, complete with helmet, is a major source of radar return. This effect is amplified by the returns of internal bulkheads and frame members. The solution is to design the cockpit so that its external shape conforms to good low radar cross section design rules, and then plate the glass with a film similar to that used for temperature control in commercial buildings. Here, the requirements are more stringent: it should pass at least 85% of the visible energy and reflect essentially all of the radar energy. At the same time, one would prefer not to have noticeable instrument-panel reflection during night flying.

Antennas
On-board antennas and radar systems are a major potential source of high radar visibility for two reasons. One is that it is obviously difficult to hide something that is designed to transmit with very high efficiency, so the so-called in-band radar cross section is liable to be significant. The other is that even if this problem is solved satisfactorily, the energy emitted by these systems can normally be readily detected. The work being done to reduce these signatures is classified.

Paint scheme
In order to make the F-22 disappear for the human eye on the ground, when in flight, special camouflage schemes have been developed. This way the plane will blend with the background sky as much as possible viewed from the bottom and disappear in the ground texture when seen from above."

Engines
The F119 can push the F-22 to supersonic speeds above Mach 1.4 even without the use of afterburner, which gives the fighter a greater operating range and allows for stealthier flight operation. No after burner = not a big IR signature at super sonic speeds.
 
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Scratch

Captain
To add something to the radar. I think the radar itself is a good reflector as well. Now if I'm correct, when in stand by mode the radar surface is swept upwards at an 45° angle to deflect radar energy away from the emitter.

But how dangerous is it for the Raptor to open it's weapon bays? I mean will an opponent only see the AMRRAM radar going activ, or might he already get a signal return from the open bays of the Raptor?
Especially when firing Sidewinder-X AAMs, the doors would have to be open rather long to allow the missile seeker to lock on.
 
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IDonT

Senior Member
VIP Professional
But how dangerous is it for the Raptor to open it's weapon bays? I mean will an opponent only see the AMRRAM radar going activ, or might he already get a signal return from the open bays of the Raptor?
Especially when firing Sidewinder-X AAMs, the doors would have to be open rather long to allow the missile seeker to lock on.


Theoratically it can be detected however, such that manuever only takes a few seconds. That is assuming that your radar is looking at the right place at the right time.
 

speculator

New Member
You need to check the source of that article. The only USAF Col named Richard Rankin I could find was one that spotted UFO's in 1947.

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!


I check USAF sources and found no such name.

Your right, my bad. I should have checked it. :(

Lets start with the radar. - IdonT
The F-22's uses the AN/APG-77 radar, an active-element, electronically scanned (that is, it does not move) array of over 1000 finger-sized transmitter / receiver modules. Each module weights ca 15g and has a power output of over 4W. The APG-77 is capable of changing the direction, power and shape of the radar beam very rapidly (called random frequency hopping), which is practically impossible for current RWR to pick up. The AN/APG-77 changes frequencies more than 1,000 times per second to reduce the chance of being intercepted. The radar can also focus its emissions to overload enemy sensors, giving the plane an electronic-attack capability. The result, an enemy will not know that the F-22 has a firing solution until the active radar of an AMRAAM lights up five miles away.



Here you dont mention how the rader is physically stealthed. Ok, rader works by sending radio signals and then receiving them. this means that it will be impossible for the radar dome to be stealthed, otherwise, the AN/APG-77 rader's (and any other radar) own signals would be deflected. This is proven because the nose section of the f-22 does not follow any other lines on the aircraft and also it is not covered in the same radar absorbent paint. the F-117 however has no rader. this could mean that the JSF is not only detectable from the front, but also from the back.
f22%20missle2.jpg

this picture clearly shows a)the different contours of the nose and b)the different tone in colour.
 
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Gollevainen

Colonel
VIP Professional
Registered Member
Tough interesting issue, but still, this is a naval discussion forum so off you all go, back to the surface of the sea;) ;)
 

eecsmaster

Junior Member
you're confused.

The radome is frequency dependent, so it can block out certain emissions and allow others to pass. Regardless, the radome itself is a non-issue because it's a dielectric that does not return much.

People are often confused by stealth. They seem to believe that the outer shell of the aircraft is the only attributing factor of RCS, which is not the case. In fact, it's often what is under the skin that matters. Geometric stealth is just using preshaped surfaces to shield these areas. However, you can only go so far. The Lockheed's JSF's original design had canards, but due to the fact that they gave off too much reflection, they were removed. The largest contributing factor was not the wings themselves, but the actuators.
 

speculator

New Member
you're confused.

The radome is frequency dependent, so it can block out certain emissions and allow others to pass. Regardless, the radome itself is a non-issue because it's a dielectric that does not return much.

People are often confused by stealth. They seem to believe that the outer shell of the aircraft is the only attributing factor of RCS, which is not the case. In fact, it's often what is under the skin that matters. Geometric stealth is just using preshaped surfaces to shield these areas. However, you can only go so far. The Lockheed's JSF's original design had canards, but due to the fact that they gave off too much reflection, they were removed. The largest contributing factor was not the wings themselves, but the actuators.

Very True BUT the AN/APG-77 rader is an Random Frequency Hopping Radar so building an frequency dependent radome would be nearly impossible?

Anyhow going back to the topic.....

I doubt a destroyer is very effective against modern fighter/bombers simply because the range of the anti-ship missiles carried by them are much greater than the anti air missiles carried on ships. (which are 0/0) also, the radar on aircraft are not effected by the horizon so this gives them an edge aswell. (although not with aegis).

So in conclusion, the best defence against aircraft is still your own airforce.

BUT could long range missiled destroyers be deployed as an offensive anti-air weapon? i.e. put it near Taiwan?

Just mho
 

IDonT

Senior Member
VIP Professional
BUT could long range missiled destroyers be deployed as an offensive anti-air weapon? i.e. put it near Taiwan?

Just mho

USN employs a tactic called the "Silent SAM". This works when the position of a battle group is compromised and an antiship strike is on the way. The fleet commander positions 1 or 2 Aegis ship towards the threat axis, while moving the main body 180 degrees at flank speed and radiating. The strike group pick up this signal and fixed the groups position. What they don't know about is that the silent sam ship is closer to them. Once they are within the ships SAM range, the ship opens up and shoots them down or force them to jettison their ordinance.
 

SinoForce

New Member
BUT could long range missiled destroyers be deployed as an offensive anti-air weapon? i.e. put it near Taiwan?
Yes, it's like having a SAM battery that you can move around on the water. If you can keep it alive and keep it re-armed, it would cause a lot of headaches. With war nowadays, you can run out of ammo or get killed in minutes.

The problem that ships have against aircraft is that a plane can land, re-arm, re-fuel and get back up for follow-up attacks again and again from long-distance until the ship runs out of ammo and becomes a sitting duck.
 
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