Decline of Japan Thread

jimmyjames30x30

Junior Member
Registered Member
hi jimmyjames30x30

Sorry, what I meant is ASIAN ECONOMIC BLOC , RCEP is a good start. Its a good setting, but including AUSTRALIA and India is a NO BRAINER. I think PREMIERE ABE inclusion of both nation is to balance CHINA and to control the NARATIVE that it is not CHINA CENTRIC PACT.

Regarding RUSSIA AND CHINA its alliance is strong and will remaining so in the future, The reason is the SIBERIAN OIL PIPELINE , this tie up both countries to each other, its a also a symbolic gesture of defiance to western economic sanction and threats.

IT'S also the same reason with GERMANY and RUSSIA , That is why Washington is determined to stop the NORDS STREAM PROJECT , If completed GERMANY will able to source cheap energy source for its industrial development and ply away from WASHINGTON DIKTAT.

Of course, there is a problem with including Australia and India. However it is not because of that "balancing China's influence" rhetoric, but because it would further delay the signing, closing and implementation of RCEP. This is because there will need extra negotiation, and paper work, etc, now that there are more partners signing on. For China, it would be better if the whole thing is done and dealt over with. To drag on, would possibly give the US more time to come up with sabotage plans against it.
 
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ansy1968

Brigadier
Registered Member
Well, I doubt that. Sure you could speculate that Abe's attempt to include Australia and India is a balancing act. However, Australia and India's actual weight in the partnership are determined by their share of the total trade covered by the partnership. In terms of trade volume, Australia and India are really small potatoes. So it look more like a posture or media bluff/smoke-screen to me. In fact in the long run, it would be in China's interest to include India and Australia in one of these partnerships/agreement. If the Japanese were able to convince India and Australia to get on the bus, it will actually save a lot of China's time and resources to achieve the same thing.

As for the Russia, I think it has much more to do with just oil. Russo-Chinese relation has much more serious implications to China. It's history and geopolitics. Historically speaking, the major existential threat faced by China has ALWAYS been from the North. This has been true since forever. Even the USSR has been a much much larger threat to the PRC than the Japanese been to the ROC, also for a longer period of time. Maintaining and good and friendly relations with Russia, is extremely important for China. In simpler words, China can manage hostility from almost any number of countries as long as it has the backings of a good Russo-Chinese relation. On the flip side, even if China is in an alliance with Japan, USA and India, she will still suffer much more if Russia was hostile to her. This is simply geography.
hi jimmyjames30x30

Yup your right , That is why when PRESIDENT XI took power it first visit is RUSSIA, it also a great timing cause RUSSIA is being sanction for its annexation of CRIMEA and the COLOR REVOLUTION in UKRAINE. It made a major rethink in RUSSIA to look to the EAST and diversify its industries.

Their is a MAJOR AMERICAN thinker that stated that whoever CONTROL THE URAL ASIA(central asia) control the world, Well the CHINA - RUSSIA ALLIANCE is surely a MAJOR STRATEGIC BLUNDER on US part, it complement each other NEEDS both economic and strategic. THE POWER OF SIBERIA PIPELINE is one of these ,plus the BRI initiative is the other.
 

ansy1968

Brigadier
Registered Member
Of course, there is a problem with including Australia and India. However it is not because of that "balancing China's influence" rhetoric, but because it would further delay the signing, closing and implementation of RCEP. This is because there will need extra negotiation, and paper work, etc, now that there are more partners signing on. For China, it would be better if the whole thing is done and dealt over with. To drag on, would possibly give the US more time to come up with sabotage plans against it.
hi jimmyjames30x30

DO you think its a tactic by AUSTRALIA to delay it until the NOVEMBER ELECTION to see if BIDEN won. AUSTRALIA had a free trade agreement with CHINA, I think they will endorse CTPP and drop the RCEP is TRUMP LOSE the election.
 

Weaasel

Senior Member
Registered Member
Hi guys,

The decline of Japan fascinates me, as it was once considered a major Asian competitor to the U.S. but slowly collapsed into a pitiful state. One reason is that Japan missed out on the personal computer revolution of the 1990's. Japan's semiconductor industry once shocked the world, rising from nothing (the first
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) to over 50% world market by 1988 through its advanced DRAM (Dynamic Random Access Memory chips). Meanwhile US market share collapsed from dominance to just 35% and the leading US lithography supplier, ElmerPerkins, was forced to exit the market in 1989. This created major political headaches in Washington D.C. and in 1986, the
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. (If you want some insight into American thinking on industrial policy as well as some entertaining look back on the paranoia of the 1980s,
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)

However since then, Japan's market share for semiconductors has collapsed from 50% to just 7% and going to zero. Here is an interesting article:

" Japanese companies accounted for more than 50% of the IC market in the second half of the 1980s and 49% in 1990. But by 2017, the share of Japanese companies has fallen to 7%.

Why is the situation like this?

Yukio Noguch, a consultant at the Waseda University Business Finance Research Center in Japan, believes that there are deeper reasons. On June 8th, Japan's "Diamond Weekly" magazine published an article by Yukio Noguch entitled "What is the root cause of the decline of the Japanese semiconductor industry? ", the author explained his deep insights in the article. The article is now excerpted as follows:

"In fact, DRAM is not a product that requires too much technology, and emerging countries will one day produce low-cost DRAM products. As a result, Japan's semiconductor industry will also decline due to price competition with emerging countries. The same thing happened later in the LCD field. Not only LCD, but in many areas of manufacturing, as products are commercialized, price competition has intensified.

The real problem with the Japanese semiconductor industry is that it has not been able to transition to products such as CPUs that require high technology.

So why are Japanese semiconductor manufacturers failing to make a transition to CPU production? That is because the basic research and development capabilities are weak.

For the CPU, the important thing is not only the semiconductor chip hardware itself, but more importantly, the software part of the integration. The same thing happens in other areas, such as the camera field.

At the stage of transitioning from a film camera to a digital camera, Japanese camera manufacturers were keeping up with the trend. However, when a smartphone appears, the most important thing becomes the artificial intelligence image recognition function provided by the smartphone. That is to say, the "brain" that processes image information becomes necessary compared to the "eye" of the camera lens. In this field, Japan’s basic development capabilities are clearly behind.

In the end, Japan's semiconductor industry was left behind in the world trend after the 1990s. The fundamental reason is the lack of ability to create new things, especially in the information-related areas.

The significance of basic education

New technologies can come from companies, but not exactly. Basic research in universities is also important.

When the US industry weakened in the 1980s, American universities were still very strong.

So what is the situation in Japan at the time? When Japan dominated the world in the semiconductor industry in the 1980s, it was also strong in the academic world associated with it. Japanese scholars play a leading role in the semiconductor-related international society.

However, this state has not been maintained. Since then, Japan’s research capacity has declined.

It can be seen that Japanese universities have not kept up with the development of the world in the most advanced fields because they cannot reconstruct the research and education system according to changes in society. If we stop growing, the reconstruction of the university will not be possible. Therefore, the research in the fields needed by society cannot be completed, and the economy cannot grow."

----------

While the author blames the weakness of Japan's basic research university system, I think that is only part of the picture. In retrospect, Japan never fully caught up with the US and its market share advantage was a mirage, because it was based on low tech DRAM. In fact in the 1980s the PC revolution was already beginning and although Japan dominated in consumer electronics (such as the Sony Walkman) it was never a serious competitor in the Personal Computer space, not even in the 1980s, neither hardware or software. Japan never even tried to seriously compete in the PC space.

This would eventually doom its lead in semiconductors as well. Thus, in reality Japan was never more than a marginal player in the larger technological trends of the time.

The real lesson of Japan's decline is that you cannot get too excited over dominance in one area (such as DRAM). If you are not leading in basic research and competitive in all major areas, you will eventually lose out. For China, it must not cede any areas to the US and actively compete against Google in OS as well as with Intel and AMD, as well as in biotech and aerospace fields. Winning shallow victories in narrow technologies will not hold.


All this commentary and analysis omits the fact that when it comes to capital goods and components and sub components utilized in consumer electrical and electronic appliances and also in manufacturing machinery, Japanese companies all have substantial to dominant market share in utmost recent state of the art technologies.
 

Weaasel

Senior Member
Registered Member
People, if Japan was still not a very formidable and one of the leading actors in state of the art technological fields, South Korea would not have been so greatly affected by Japan placing restrictions on South Korea for purchases of materials needed to produce semiconductors for which there are few readily available productive substitutes.

Japan is certainly not as prominent as it once was with regards to consumer electronic gadgetry in terms of televisions, audio players, and cameras, but with regards to capital goods and sophisticated components and semi finished materials that go into producing machinery and electronic and electrical appliances, Japan is still at the top of the league.
 

AssassinsMace

Lieutenant General
Japan is in the same boat as the US. The numbers make them look rich but everything costs more for them. Japan has their counter to China's One Belt One Road... so. All they're doing is helping China pay for it. The West is afraid of China's One Belt One Road because it's all about to them who is going to have influence in that country. The only way they're going to have influence in a civilized way is they're going to have let that country in their markets and have them make enough money to be loyal to them. A first world standard of living is going to cost a lot. If you haven't read the news, all Western allied countries have or are showing their disdain for foreigners in their market. Yeah we hear about all the moves against China they have but it's going to cost them. The countries China is aiming to develop are countries the West ignored. They were ignored because they served no strategic value for them. They did not develop them because that costs a lot of money. Now they have value because China gave them value by looking to develop them and nothing else. China doesn't have to worry about gaining influence. It's going to come naturally. If these countries develop, they will naturally want to engage economically with China. Do you think if Japan develops one of these countries, there's going to be an exclusive relationship with only Japan. Yeah and it'll cost Japan a lot of money to have that influence all because they want to counter China. The West just has to look at themselves at how they look to make every penny they can. The countries that they want to develop in order to influence aren't going to want that too? They're going to see Western hypocrisy that they have economic relations with China but they're not allowed to do the same? Let Japan and the West and their paranoia pour money to counter China's One Belt One Road. All they're doing is to help China pay for it. it's going to cost Japan and the West many times more to do the same things China does. The Soviet Union collapsed because they were trying to counter everything the US was doing until it bankrupted them.
 

2handedswordsman

Junior Member
Registered Member
Japan is in the same boat as the US. The numbers make them look rich but everything costs more for them. Japan has their counter to China's One Belt One Road... so. All they're doing is helping China pay for it. The West is afraid of China's One Belt One Road because it's all about to them who is going to have influence in that country. The only way they're going to have influence in a civilized way is they're going to have let that country in their markets and have them make enough money to be loyal to them. A first world standard of living is going to cost a lot. If you haven't read the news, all Western allied countries have or are showing their disdain for foreigners in their market. Yeah we hear about all the moves against China they have but it's going to cost them. The countries China is aiming to develop are countries the West ignored. They were ignored because they served no strategic value for them. They did not develop them because that costs a lot of money. Now they have value because China gave them value by looking to develop them and nothing else. China doesn't have to worry about gaining influence. It's going to come naturally. If these countries develop, they will naturally want to engage economically with China. Do you think if Japan develops one of these countries, there's going to be an exclusive relationship with only Japan. Yeah and it'll cost Japan a lot of money to have that influence all because they want to counter China. The West just has to look at themselves at how they look to make every penny they can. The countries that they want to develop in order to influence aren't going to want that too? They're going to see Western hypocrisy that they have economic relations with China but they're not allowed to do the same? Let Japan and the West and their paranoia pour money to counter China's One Belt One Road. All they're doing is to help China pay for it. it's going to cost Japan and the West many times more to do the same things China does. The Soviet Union collapsed because they were trying to counter everything the US was doing until it bankrupted them.

Well said. Soviet Union also was in disadvantage because it was stuck to "real economy" in some way. They kept it real till death :p Even the crisis with PRC came after the harsh response of Mao to the Soviet pro-market Κossygin reforms at early 60's . He condemned USSR for turning to capitalism. Funny story. Japan has much money to spend for its own prosperity. But is somewhere stuck. Like USA. Sad to know that people leave in capsules or internet cafes though. I hope both Japanese/US people will find the way
 

jimmyjames30x30

Junior Member
Registered Member
People, if Japan was still not a very formidable and one of the leading actors in state of the art technological fields, South Korea would not have been so greatly affected by Japan placing restrictions on South Korea for purchases of materials needed to produce semiconductors for which there are few readily available productive substitutes.

Japan is certainly not as prominent as it once was with regards to consumer electronic gadgetry in terms of televisions, audio players, and cameras, but with regards to capital goods and sophisticated components and semi finished materials that go into producing machinery and electronic and electrical appliances, Japan is still at the top of the league.

Well, there is a big problem in your argument. South Korea is only one special example. Make it any other similar population or GDP countries in the world, for example Spain, Italy, South Africa, Argentina, Canada, Australia, and the Netherlands, etc; the outcome would have been very very different.

South Korea is pretty much a special case. Its economy, industry and supply chain were original built with the help of Japan. When South Korea received a lot of the industries shifted out from Japan, a massive amount of technological transfers happened between the two. The Japanese has done these with the design to make South Korea an extension of Japanese industry. These two countries were already very much intertwined, and together they destroyed a lot of the European and American competitors. Thus it is NOT the case that the Japanese universally filled a role as important to the high-tech/consumer gadgetry industry of any country. In fact, Japan would have little to no leverage to Europeans countries, and the Americas.
 

jimmyjames30x30

Junior Member
Registered Member
Japan is in the same boat as the US. The numbers make them look rich but everything costs more for them. Japan has their counter to China's One Belt One Road... so. All they're doing is helping China pay for it. The West is afraid of China's One Belt One Road because it's all about to them who is going to have influence in that country. The only way they're going to have influence in a civilized way is they're going to have let that country in their markets and have them make enough money to be loyal to them. A first world standard of living is going to cost a lot. If you haven't read the news, all Western allied countries have or are showing their disdain for foreigners in their market. Yeah we hear about all the moves against China they have but it's going to cost them. The countries China is aiming to develop are countries the West ignored. They were ignored because they served no strategic value for them. They did not develop them because that costs a lot of money. Now they have value because China gave them value by looking to develop them and nothing else. China doesn't have to worry about gaining influence. It's going to come naturally. If these countries develop, they will naturally want to engage economically with China. Do you think if Japan develops one of these countries, there's going to be an exclusive relationship with only Japan. Yeah and it'll cost Japan a lot of money to have that influence all because they want to counter China. The West just has to look at themselves at how they look to make every penny they can. The countries that they want to develop in order to influence aren't going to want that too? They're going to see Western hypocrisy that they have economic relations with China but they're not allowed to do the same? Let Japan and the West and their paranoia pour money to counter China's One Belt One Road. All they're doing is to help China pay for it. it's going to cost Japan and the West many times more to do the same things China does. The Soviet Union collapsed because they were trying to counter everything the US was doing until it bankrupted them.

OBOR has very little to do with Japan. There are not many shared interest, nor are there many conflict of interest.
 

Inst

Captain
The fundamental problem is that they gave up after the Bubble Era. If you look at Japanese history, they've been through a lot, whether it was the Great Depression, the failure of Japanese Imperialism in WW2, or the constant political assassinations.

When the bubble era burst, Japan chose happiness over life; it could very well have destroyed its Keiretsu system and burnt down its existing social welfare net to remain competitive, but for Japan, what was the point? They had pretty Sakura in the springtime and a high standard of living. Why give it away, when they were disadvantaged in terms of population to the United States and could never manage to capture China, the linchpin of East Asian power?
 
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