CV-18 Fujian/003 CATOBAR carrier thread

Strangelove

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PLA Navy transport aircraft hold simulated landing on carrier, ‘indicate 3rd carrier to be equipped with cargo planes’

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Published: Jun 29, 2022 10:21 PM


A future aircraft carrier function demonstration model is on display at the newly renovated and expanded Military Museum of the Chinese People's Revolution in Beijing on Sunday. Photo: Liu Xuanzun/GT

A future aircraft carrier function demonstration model is on display at the newly renovated and expanded Military Museum of the Chinese People's Revolution in Beijing on Sunday. Photo: Liu Xuanzun/GT

The Chinese People's Liberation Army (PLA) Navy recently held simulation training for transport aircraft to land on aircraft carriers, with military analysts saying on Wednesday that the move indicated that China is now developing fixed-wing transport aircraft and special mission aircraft including early warning aircraft for its third aircraft carrier, thanks to the latter's electromagnetic catapults.

The PLA Naval Aviation University recently organized a series of training sessions under realistic combat scenarios with Y-7 transport aircraft at an airfield in North China, China National Radio reported on Wednesday.

Among a number of training courses, the pilot cadets carried out land-based simulation training for transport aircraft to land on aircraft carriers, according to the report.

This seems to be the first time the general public was made aware that the PLA Navy is preparing its transport aircraft pilot cadets for aircraft carrier operations, observers said.

China's current two aircraft carriers, the Liaoning and the Shandong, do not have fixed-wing transport aircraft because they use ski-jump ramps that limit the aircraft's takeoff weight. But such aircraft will soon be able to operate on the country's recently launched third aircraft carrier, the Fujian, which uses electromagnetic catapults, analysts said.

Fixed-wing transport aircraft are advantageous over transport helicopters on aircraft carriers in terms of range, speed and cargo capacity, and that is why China should have them, now that it has a catapult-equipped aircraft carrier, Fu Qianshao, a Chinese military aviation expert, told the Global Times on Wednesday.

Using the Y-7 for simulated training is a good choice because the general characteristics like the size of the Y-7 are similar to a carrier-borne cargo plane, Fu said.

The US has the C-2 Greyhound cargo plane for its aircraft carriers, and developed E-2 Hawkeye early warning aircraft based on it.

China reportedly developed the KJ-600 early warning aircraft for its third carrier, and developing a cargo plane based on the KJ-600 would be easy, Fu said, noting that it could also spawn more special mission variants, including carrier-based fixed-wing anti-submarine warfare aircraft.

The Fujian is also expected to be equipped with an improved version of the J-15 heavy fighter jet compatible with catapult launches, an electronic warfare variant of the J-15, a next-generation stealth fighter jet reportedly to be called the J-35, and armed reconnaissance drones, according to media reports.
 

Shimakazerun

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What would be the consequences of having one elevator out of action due to damage/malfunction/maintenance during wartime

By the way, is there any literature on how common elevator failures are in US carriers and how it affects their operations?
won't very often.
in 1997 nine surge operation, elevator 3&4 use only 19 times during 4 days.likely 25 percent.As for failure.the report didn't even mention.
1656698014268.png
but elevators does unuseable during surge.the reasons are:
• USS Nimitz was in a turn. To prevent ocean water from washing over a down elevator, elevators cannot be used in a turn. (Turns were observed to take six to eight minutes to complete.)
• USS Nimitz was moving too fast Again, this is to prevent ocean water from washing over a down elevator.
• An aircraft scheduled for an impending launch was parked on the elevator.
• An aircraft on the elevator was not chained down.
• An aircraft on the elevator destined for the hangar bay was configured with ordnance.
• An aircraft on the elevator destined for the hangar bay hadJP-8 taken from an Air Force tanker. JP-8 has too low a flash point and aircraft with JP-8 in their fuel tanks must be defueled or fuel stores diluted withJP-5 before entering the hangar bay.
• An aircraft parked on the elevator was turning.
• An aircraft parked on the elevator was nose- or tail-over-deck.
• An aircraft next to the elevator was fouling the elevator's stanchions.
•Using the elevator would foul the landing area (Elevator Four).
• Ordnance remained to be loaded on the elevator.
• The hangar doors were closed. (This occurred late on 23 July into the morning hours on 24July, simulating defense against inbound cruise missiles.)
• There were not enough aviation boatswain's mates to man the elevator. (This happened during a particularly stressful time on the flight deck and the plane handlers were occupied with more pressing duties.)
• The hangar bay could not take the down traffic (either because it was full or aircraft had to be rearranged).
 

Shimakazerun

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Just like point out that PA 76 was a French design.

It should also be noted that the MN has consistently been adopting the 2+2 philosophy (2 catapults + 2 lifts) for all of their CVs past, present and future.

Every iteration from the Clems to the CDG and onwards to the PANG has been, and will continue to be configured with 2 starboard lifts (though Lift 1 on the Clemenceau was in the middle, rear of the foredeck, which PA 76 was presumably drawn up to attempt to address, the layout of which was of course eventually adopted by CDG), even for a 75,000 tonner like the PANG, itself not that much less massive than 003.

View attachment 91108

At the risk of re-treading a similar debate from pages back, I'd still point out that different navies have different doctrines for their respective carrier programmes, whether it be operationally or due to cost. The naval doctrines adopted by the USN throughout the decades as reflected in their carrier designs, which the PLAN has no doubt studied extensively and exhaustively, may not necessarily apply to the PLAN's own operational needs just because China is now in the business of building CATOBAR supercarriers, and that China's current stage of carrier development has reached/is reaching peer status with that of the US.

While @Blitzo may be keen to posit that 003 is not even the final form of what the PLAN may envision for their serial-production ready 100,000 ton nuclear variant that is expected to centre around a 3-lift + 4-cat config so as to bring it on par with the 'benchmark' as established by the Ford-class, and I'd be ready to agree that he's most likely correct, I think it's also worth bearing in mind the USN has spent over six decades (and counting) of designing, building and operating nuclear carriers with 4 lifts (longer still if we were to start from the advent of 'supercarriers' that began with the Forrestals), which had long been accepted as an well-optimised layout for a US supercarrier... until the Ford came along with her 3 lifts.

Naturally the question becomes: "Was the 4th lift superfluous all along?"

And naturally the justification becomes: "The flight deck has been 'optimised' by the 3 lifts."

If after more than 60 years of operating CVNs the Navy can still find a reason to delete a major feature like a 4,400 sq. ft and 120 ton elevator in order to 'optimise' a supercarrier in serial-production for over 50 years, what else can they add or omit? What capability has the boat gained/lost from doing so? Can the Navy then claim there isn't room for improvement still?

I would think if one were to entertain the notion of a 'gold standard' in lift/catapult numbers and placements, the Ford-class may have a couple more decades yet to go before it can confidently claim its design is representative of what an "optimised" 100,000 tonner should look like.

So I'm of the opinion the PLAN will no doubt look to the vast experience of the US carrier programme as accrued by the trials and tribulations over many decades to inform their own approach to designing carriers that are best suited for China, for threat environments that are unique to China, as opposed to pursuing some sort of a vain goal of building analogues to 100,000 ton class US supercarriers for a reason as simple as: "American supercarriers are heretofore peerless, state-of-the-art and best-in-class, so a Chinese Ford is what China should build".

We can all debate the pros and cons of 2 lifts vs 3, or 3 cats vs 4. At the end of the day only the PLAN knows if they're actually giving up capabilities or not.

All that is not to say the PLAN shouldn't emulate the USN where it makes sense to. The next Chinese CV, be it another 003-pattern or a nuclear kind, could as well have an additional lift and catapult if the PLAN judges it advantageous to have them, and I would have no issue accepting the 003 as configured was a result of give-and-take for the PLAN, itself a process that was governed and limited by understandings and compromises from a time well before the first steel was cut over 6 years ago, before 002 was even launched.

Or, the next CV could as well retain a similar 3 cats + 2 lifts layout to 003, perhaps with appropriate positioning on an expected larger deck with a re-positioned island if nuclear, and personally I wouldn't be so surprised with it either.
I like your consideration.
If you just respeak others words,it means you didn't consider the question yourself.let alone that shilao is clearly not perfessionally.1656702675396.jpeg
As this concept design of CVV1656702727606.png
It's only 908 feet length.which is no long enough for four barriers.And the port sponson is much longer than starboard sponson to make the landing deck long enough.
In this case, starboard is clearly can't fit two huge elevators on the same board.
Or you need to decrease the angle of landing deck which means you need to change the landing progress、 and enlarge the port sponson.

As the PA-76.Is't not even CVV,but a much more smaller sea control ship.

In other case, the father of CVV ——T-CBL,who's elevator is much smaller than the CVV concept design up there,is able to put 2 elevator on starboard.1656704054397.png
 
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