CV-18 Fujian/003 CATOBAR carrier thread

5unrise

Junior Member
Registered Member
I read somewhere that a 100,000 ton carrier has the firepower equivalent of 3,000 missiles. A 10,000 ton destroyer has about 100 missiles. So 10 destroyers would equal to 1 carrier in total tonnage. However with only 1,000 missiles that is only 1/3rd the firepower equivalent. Furthermore 10 destroyers probably costs the same as 1 carrier. If 10 destroyers had to fight 1 carrier, there is enough firepower to sink the carrier. Not all 10 destroyers is guaranteed to survive, but it would still be a victory for the destroyers.

It is possible to build an average of 10 destroyers per year, while it is next to impossible to build 1 carrier per year. If it was up to me, I think building six Type-055 and four Type-052D destroyers per year is doable. As for the carrier program I would leave it at 1 carrier per 4 years and I would NOT build a nuclear carrier until maybe after the year 2034.
Let's take an American supercarrier like the Nimitz class as an example. During peacetime, its number of fixed-wing fighters is about 50, and this will probably rise to 80-100 in wartime. Let's use the F/A-18 Superhornet as an example: it should have about 8,000 kg of weapons payload and possibly around 10-12 external hardpoints (don't have specific number on hand, but it is certainly around that). If that gets outfitted heavily for anti-ship purposes, it can carry probably around 4 anti-ship missiles (LRSAM weighs about 1,000 kg without boosters), and the remainder being air-to-air missiles. This suggests that if all FA-18s were scrambled quickly, it can muster around 800-1000 missiles at the point in time, with about 320-400 of these being anti-ship. This missile count is not significantly different to a group of destroyers that is roughly equivalent to the construction cost of the Nimitz supercarrier and airwing (something like $18-$20 billion). This roughly translates to about 10 Arleigh Burkes. Once the FA-18s completed their mission, they will return to their carrier and probably need some time to reload and service before they can sortie again.

Once the destroyers fired all their missiles though, they are kind of done. The Flight IIA+ Burkes do not have a crane onboard to reload the VLS, and from my understanding reloading is done in port. But the carrier aircrafts can come back for round 2, and then round 3, and so on, given enough time in a protracted engagement or stanbdoff. So, I'd say the carrier has more sustaining power than 10 destroyers, and this is probably where the '3,000 missile vs 1,000' firepower analogy comes in.

There's other advantages to the carrier, like a greater effective striking range for its anti-ship weapon relative to the destroyer. But I'm sure there are advanatages to the destroyer too.
 

ougoah

Brigadier
Registered Member
Coal is nice, but how many plants for turning of coal into oil China has operational?

Also, China imports how many, 2/3 of it's oil/gas? She will replace that with what? When one day USN put's a cork in Strait of Malacca.

Also, Russia also thought that she is irrepleacable as a market and commodity exporter, and now? Embargo and sequestering of Russian equity abroad.

One doesn't convert coal to oil. Coal to energy yes. And coal is very nice and important. Which is why china keeps its own reserves and imports so that if coal is limited due to depletion or price volatility, it uses some of its own.

China imports only 2/3 of its energy? That's amazing. India imports nearly 3/3 of its energy use lol just for a comparison. And this is china barely even using its own coal reserves.

Notice that china's energy security is stronger than Europe and US. It has better relations, ties, and mutual dependence with Iran, KSA, Russia!, And coal producers around the world. China also has more renewable sourced energy than almost the rest of the world combined. Those project goals are not even close to being met and already china produces more joules and watts from solar, hydro, and wind then what Europe or US does. Combine those and you'll get around how much energy china produces from renewables. Pipelines go through neutral to friendly countries as well.

what does Russia's equity overseas have to do with china? Those countries can try to block Malacca strait and honestly china can let them and those countries will collapse under the weight of just inflation within years. They would socially collapse within months. It would be these supply chain issues multiplied by 1000.

do you realise that the western world is begging china to restart production and let ships flow? They are in reality more dependent on china providing them with all those goods that make the world run on a dime. Without that they can pick either 500% inflation or surviving like it is the 19th century.

on tech, the west is actually just about as dependent on china than the other way around. China can make chips down to 14nm nodes already and has been for some time. Aircrafts too. They will just be less efficient and economical than leading western ones. But everything from designing the next consumer product to a transformer, is done in china. All the leading edge stuff is more Asian than it is western and in more domains than people realise, it's china.
 

gelgoog

Lieutenant General
Registered Member
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China generates more electricity with hydropower alone today than all their electric generation around 2000.

China does have coal to liquids technology to produce oil. But given that they will have much more limited competition for Russian oil they can just keep the coal. I fully expect more oil pipelines from Russia to China to be built over the next decade.
 

ougoah

Brigadier
Registered Member
Point is carriers are a major force multiplier for force projection. Aircraft are able to perform tasks no cruise or fleet of destroyers subs and frigates can accomplish.

While china's energy security is among the best in the world but it's also the most reliant on energy since it consumes the most if it wants to continue supplying the world. The additional naval capability honestly isn't to simply contend against sea routes being blocked. Why not? Because believing that is an option at the moment is being fooled by how everything is framed by western narratives.

This simply isn't how the world works and is. Let's just say that china refusing to sell hurts the west much, much more than the west can hurt china but blocking trade (west blowing its own feet off basically). The whole idea of blocking trade is ludicrously misrepresented by western think tanks and "geostrategists" like the jokester Peter zeihan as one example. Energy is another matter though but it's tied with production and trade. Wartime energy reserves china has the most of. It's also got relatively good land routes to Russia Iran and KSA.

In engineering, product development, r&d, manufacturing, much more is done in china than plebs and common folks realise or can admit. Much, much more. More than you would believe. It would surprise you.

In two major tech industries I am a part of. Almost all the science and engineering, product development and testing are done entirely in china via local branches or entirely Chinese organisations. They are then taken to the west and branded as XYZ. Basically china is firmly the engine of prosperity in more industries than you'd think. Only in a few is china not the major contributor or player or leading in. Even in those e.g. commercial aviation, semiconductor fab, and various high end tooling for various industries, china has a range of competency all considerably decent and enough self reliance to get by and still do the things even if it means having less competitive and less capable output.

This is true for already 2015 era. Civil aviation being its absolute weakest one that I'm aware of.

Everyone else are also highly dependent. Usually much more so than china and yes that includes Japan and Germany, arguably the two most self reliant industrial powerhouses outside of China.

What use is a blue water navy with eventually several carrier fleets after one or two decades? Strategic redundancy. Things change over time. If dependency on china shifts so much they don't mind destroying half of themselves to hurt china enough in trade and energy security then you better have a hard power means of crushing that thought.

That's literally it. Obviously useful for direct military engagement even if just in China's front yard. That's several dozen more aircraft with considerably more energy than plaaf ones from the coast.

Eventually also guarding the safety of Chinese interests throughout the Indian Ocean and Atlantic.
 

Godzilla

Junior Member
Registered Member
tHf2j6n.png

China generates more electricity with hydropower alone today than all their electric generation around 2000.

China does have coal to liquids technology to produce oil. But given that they will have much more limited competition for Russian oil they can just keep the coal. I fully expect more oil pipelines from Russia to China to be built over the next decade.
Aside from how much oil China actually need in a war time situation since most exports would be turned off, I am not sure if people understand the energy balance in China, especially how much of it it actually produces or have in reserve, as well as how quickly it can switch from other sources.
Sure there isn't that many operational coal to gasoline plants in China, but there are plenty of coal gasification plants, as in literally hundreds. I've worked with CNCEC on some of these plants, and have visited one of the operating coal to gasoline plants in Jinchen. It was a little baby, making around 100,000 tpa of gasoline from around 300,000 ton of methanol. The Chinese MTG tech was on trial in the plant at 10,000tpa. Back then it cost around 260mil rmb for the MTG part, and could be built in less than 18 months. Now, most of the other coal gasification plants are around 1million tpa size. Most of them have the real estate to bolt down half a dozen to a dozen trains of MTG. I think it is entirely feasible since most of these plants produce plastics etc for export, have plenty of local fab that can make the required vessels, and access to the catalysts and are all in coal rich areas. Don't think it will ever come to that, but just saying, its not that easy to chock China's neck. The South Africans managed, who is to say the Chinese can't?
Anyway this is off topics.
 

Blitzo

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
They've installed the radars

No.
Those are just covers over the radar openings.

It's been the same for all ships around the world, radars are installed during fit out, post launch.

For the PLAN, if you look at 052C, 052D, 055, carrier 002 -- their fixed face radar arrays are not installed, and they only have metal coverings over the array openings.
The actual radars are installed during fitting out.
 
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