CV-18 Fujian/003 CATOBAR carrier thread

[Tam]

I agree with President Trump on EMALS. To me steam catapults are a tried and true system that works. I do not think EMALS will be removed from Ford or Kennedy.



True.....however apparently the USN thought it was working properly.

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Question. Are their any videos of the PLAN EMALS system? Thank you.

edit..I found one. Too bad I do not understand Chinese..

I would think that a ship that uses steam turbines and has boilers, either conventionally or nuclear powered, might be better off with steam catapults.

I might even think that a carrier built off from Dalian Shipyard, which has its knowledge on boilers and steam --- and is the reason why 001 and 002 are done there --- would have preferred a steam catapult. If 004 is going to be nuclear powered, with pressurized boilers and steam turbines, it might go with steam catapult. But if those steam turbines are going to connected to generators and the ship propelled by motors, it should go with EMALS.

003 however, is being built on Jiangnan, the shipyard that pioneered and pushed the use of gas turbines in the PLAN. Jiangnan, and the whole CSSC combine --- the southern shipyards so to speak --- are also the ones pushing IEP, and these SOEs are more willing to push the tech boundaries. A carrier using GTs and IEP would be better off using EMALS.

 

[Just4Fun]

This is the third time that Trump touched the topic of US super carrier program since he moved into the White House in 2017. The significance of this news is that it is a clear indication that the US Navy's newest catapult toy hasn't worked properly after tons of money has been spent to improve it. It looks like Trump is losing his patience to the EMALS that he thought was a waste from the beginning. This news may also confirm Gen. Ma Weiming's claim that US's EMALS is decades behind Chinese EMALS.

I am holding my breath to watch if Trump really goes that far to order the EMALS removed from the Ford. Well, anything can happen now when the words "Wrong" and "Overhaul" are used by a guy whose mental stability is always a hot topic of the media.

True.....however apparently the USN thought it was working properly.

USN's confidence means nothing to Trump. Trump needs carriers and he needs them now. He has means to get what he wants and he won't let anything block his way.

What Trump complained is that the Ford's EMALS is inefficient, unreliable, which are Trump's old complaints, and expensive to fix, which is Trump's new complaint. The news further confirms the problems in US EMALS are hard to fix.

The way Trump revealed his plan is highly suggestive. He didn't Twitter it, instead, he used the main stream media. He didn't do it in the US and he used other people's mouth to voice his dissatisfaction with EMALS. It is hard to determine how much the sailors and marines on board of USS Wasp understand the nature of Ford's EMALS problems. Therefore, their cheers for steam system are meaningless. Then, why did he announce his plan in Japan, on USS Wasp, to the sailors? Too strong resistance in USN brass to his plan? Looks like he has made up his mind. What he needs is to manipulate the game. He is using the know-nothing sailors to fight USN brass in Washington. A smart political maneuver or a stupid populist mind-game? Only time can tell.

Trump seldom hesitates to kill the deal he doesn't like. The way he reveals his plan indicates that there will be definitely no more new EMALS, and probably no more new EMALS funding, for USN as long as he is in the WH. Then, what about the EMALS already on board the Ford? Leave it alone will cripple a precious piece of USN assets. Replace it with a steam system means the Ford will not be ready for deployment in one or two more years. What makes the replacement more ominous is that the Ford may never work as efficiently as an old Nimitz, because the steam system is inconsistent with Ford's original configuration. Either way, he has another hot potato to handle.

Trump's time in office has been disastrous. His N.K. gamble ended in his disgrace. He was played like a five-grader by someone he thinks he knows, but can't name. His Iran game goes nowhere. The Persians simply ignore him no matter what non-military means are used. He can't threaten Iran without enough carriers present in the Gulf. Even the Venezuelan look down at him. Again, he'd like to send a couple of carriers there, but he doesn't get one ready. His trade war with China is eating out his chance of re-election and he'd like wish he could have enough carriers present around China. There are other spots painful to him he wants to use carriers, like the Black sea and the Mediterranean sea. He had too many mishaps and almost nothing to brag about in his two years in office. We all know he is a guy whose dictionary doesn't contain the word "humility". He is more likely to search for someone else's fault than look at himself in the mirror to explain his failures. And lack of enough workable carriers would be a convenient excuse. This means he'll move to kill US EMALS as early as possible, either for his political agenda, or for his personal conviction.

Ford's EMALS trouble may provide a rare opportunity for China to show off its naval technology prowess to the world, and a valuable room for PLAN to perfect its EMALS. If China's EMALS works as it is designed for, the CV-18 will be the single largest movable billboard China ever built, advertising Chinese engineering and technology advancement world-widely, and signaling the arrival of a new era in world naval history.

The day that the CV-18 goes sea trial with workable EMALS on board will be the day that many fragile glassy hearts break and many sad sour grapes cry, both in the US and in Taiwan. What a joyful day it will be!

 

[Deino]

Guys ... neither Trump with his stupid claims nor the EMALS discussion in general is related to the topic.

 

[Tyler]

The CV-18 program should patent their EMALS technology and they should guard their trade secrets from foreign spies.

 

[manqiangrexue]

The CV-18 program should patent their EMALS technology and they should guard their trade secrets from foreign spies.

Those are opposite points. If you patent it, you're providing almost a blue-print for it. Then any other country can build for self-use it as long as they don't sell it. It's not like you can legally force them to open up their aircraft carrier for inspection to see if they violated your patent.

China should obviously guard this CV-18 launch technology (and all others) from foreign spies, yes.

 

[Mirabo]

Recently, some people speculate that the 003 production area in JNCX is capable of constructing more than one CV at one time. The theory is that, once the modules for 003 are moved to drydock for final assembly and launch preparation, modules for 004 can be assembled on land (where the 003 modules currently are). By the time 003's hull is complete and launched, 004 modules will be ready to be transferred to drydock.

As always, I don't encourage anyone to place faith in unsubstantiated rumors. Please take these speculations with a heap of salt.

///

It seems to me that these rumors are plausible to an extent. If there will be two conventional CVs, then it makes sense for both to be constructed at Jiangnan, because Dalian is upgrading its facilities for CVN production and will not be ready until 2021-22. Also, since the new assembly area at JNCX is here to stay, it makes sense to start putting 004 into the pipeline as soon as the facilities allow (assuming there are no critical issues in 003's design that need to be redone with the 004).

Assuming this scenario, if we consider that 003 can have modules in drydock by early 2020 and launched 2021 (having started construction in 2017), then 004 construction could begin as early as 2020, moved to drydock by 2023, and launched in 2024. By this time, the CVN production at Dalian would also be active, if we hypothesize that 005 construction begins around 2022 and launches in 2025-27. This would give the PLAN a 5-carrier navy by 2030, which is in line with current predictions. These are my shower thoughts and my two cents on the matter.

The only problem with this reasoning is that it suggests 004 will not be nuclear. I don't know how to reconcile this narrative with the possibility of a nuclear 004.

These rumors should not be interpreted as though they are going to happen, but we can entertain the possibility, and foster some discussion while we wait for more 003 photos.

 

[Blitzo]

Recently, some people speculate that the 003 production area in JNCX is capable of constructing more than one CV at one time. The theory is that, once the modules for 003 are moved to drydock for final assembly and launch preparation, modules for 004 can be assembled on land (where the 003 modules currently are). By the time 003's hull is complete and launched, 004 modules will be ready to be transferred to drydock.

As always, I don't encourage anyone to place faith in unsubstantiated rumors. Please take these speculations with a heap of salt.

///

It seems to me that these rumors are plausible to an extent. If there will be two conventional CVs, then it makes sense for both to be constructed at Jiangnan, because Dalian is upgrading its facilities for CVN production and will not be ready until 2021-22. Also, since the new assembly area at JNCX is here to stay, it makes sense to start putting 004 into the pipeline as soon as the facilities allow (assuming there are no critical issues in 003's design that need to be redone with the 004).

Assuming this scenario, if we consider that 003 can have modules in drydock by early 2020 and launched 2021 (having started construction in 2017), then 004 construction could begin as early as 2020, moved to drydock by 2023, and launched in 2024. By this time, the CVN production at Dalian would also be active, if we hypothesize that 005 construction begins around 2022 and launches in 2025-27. This would give the PLAN a 5-carrier navy by 2030, which is in line with current predictions. These are my shower thoughts and my two cents on the matter.

The only problem with this reasoning is that it suggests 004 will not be nuclear. I don't know how to reconcile this narrative with the possibility of a nuclear 004.

These rumors should not be interpreted as though they are going to happen, but we can entertain the possibility, and foster some discussion while we wait for more 003 photos.

I've seen that mentioned as well, and it certainly doesn't sound unreasonable for a follow up hull to be built immediately after 003 at JN.

I'm not sure if a hypothetical second carrier at JN after 003 would be considered "004".
That is to say, if they build another carrier at JN (or DL) that is basically the same as 003, would that carrier be considered as a second "003" or as "004"?
The indications that 003 would be followed up by a nuclear powered carrier was always vague as to whether the nuclear carrier would be the immediate next carrier built or if they would build an additional 003 conventional carrier fist. If an additional 003 carrier is built, would that carrier be considered "004" or will it be "003 hull 2"?


There's also the question of what the DL upgrade situation for CVN construction is -- i.e.: do the upgrades of their facilities mean they will not be able to build carriers in the interim (for example if DL had an order placed to build an 003 pattern carrier of their own)?


We're at an interesting stage of the Chinese carrier programme where we have:
1: carrier 003 (ex 002) confirmed and verified to be under construction and soon to be in assembly at JNCX
2: basically confirmed that a nuclear carrier will be on the horizon, with indications that DL is being upgraded for that task to possibly build the first nuclear carrier
3: lack of clarity as to whether additional carriers will be built between 003 and the nuclear carrier -- will additional conventional carriers be built, and if so will they be built at JN or DL (or perhaps even both), and what kind of timeline will any additional conventional carriers be built under before the nuclear carrier?
4: in the longer term, how many nuclear carriers will they build overall and at what pace and whether they will be built at both JN and DL or only one of them etc?



All interesting questions. I'm sure we will get rumours that will answer them in due time.

 

[Intrepid]

The indications that 003 would be followed up by a nuclear powered carrier was always vague as to whether the nuclear carrier would be the immediate next carrier built or if they would build an additional 003 conventional carrier fist. If an additional 003 carrier is built, would that carrier be considered "004" or will it be "003 hull 2"?

Hull 1 = 001 = 16 Liaoning
Hull 2 = 002 = outfitting Dalian
Hull 3 = 003 = first modules in JNCX
Hull 4 = 004 = nothing seen for now
and so on ...

001 means simply "hull no. xxx", no specific type, propulsion or class or something else.

 

[Blitzo]

Hull 1 = 001 = 16 Liaoning
Hull 2 = 002 = outfitting Dalian
Hull 3 = 003 = first modules in JNCX
Hull 4 = 004 = nothing seen for now
and so on ...

001 means simply "hull no. xxx", no specific type, propulsion or class or something else.

That is certainly one possible explanation, but I don't think that is set in stone yet.

If the 00X designation system is merely used to refer to aircraft carriers chronologically, then in theory if a carrier that is the exact same as 003 is built, then it would be called 004, and the past "nuclear 004" consensus would instead apply to whatever 00X hull that is the first nuclear carrier.


It will be interesting to see what designation the Chinese boards end up going with for whatever carrier follows the current 003 we see.

 

[Intrepid]

We know only one official designation for sure: 001 = 16 = Liaoning.

All other „designations“ have their roots in the international social media community.