The QE's modules were built in places that have nothing to do with aircraft carriers either.
CV-18 Fujian/003 CATOBAR carrier thread
- Thread starter Jeff Head
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The QE's modules were built in places that have nothing to do with aircraft carriers either.
Those are buildings. It's very apparent from the satellite images of the area.Hu ??? No-one to correct or comment my post??
by78
General
Head of the 701 Institute and his team the Chinese Academy of Ordnance Science (中国兵器科学研究院). The group photo below shows two censored models (foreground) that might have something to do with the new flattop, since there is no need to censor a model of the Shandong or Liaoning.
Below is the Google translation of the news item:
Director Wu Xiaoguang led a team to the Academy of Military Sciences to investigate and exchange
On August 14, Director Wu Xiaoguang led a team to the China Academy of Ordnance Science to conduct research and was warmly received by the leaders of the Academy of Military Sciences Wang Yulin and Li Xinlong. Our deputy director He Qinglin, deputy director Zheng Zheng and relevant department leaders participated in this research activity.
At the exchange meeting, Dean Wang Yulin introduced the history and development of China Ordnance Industry Group Corporation. Vice President Wang Xiaopeng introduced the Group's military science and technology key projects and the research of the relevant projects of the Academy of Military Sciences, and looked forward to the Academy of Military Sciences and the Institute. Prospects for future cooperation, and hope that the two sides will contact and communicate more and carry out further exchanges.
Director Wu Xiaoguang pointed out that the spirit of the aircraft carrier, the spirit of two bombs and one star, and the manned space spirit all originated from the military spirit. The development of Chinese military industry began with the development of Chinese weapons. The weapon industry is an important component of the national defense science and technology industry. I hope that the two sides will carry out closer cooperation in the future and better fulfill their missions and tasks.
At the meeting, the two sides also carried out in-depth exchanges on current research, product development, and future maritime operational needs.
Director Wu Xiaoguang and his party also visited the exhibition hall of the Academy of Military Sciences.
Below is the Google translation of the news item:
Director Wu Xiaoguang led a team to the Academy of Military Sciences to investigate and exchange
On August 14, Director Wu Xiaoguang led a team to the China Academy of Ordnance Science to conduct research and was warmly received by the leaders of the Academy of Military Sciences Wang Yulin and Li Xinlong. Our deputy director He Qinglin, deputy director Zheng Zheng and relevant department leaders participated in this research activity.
At the exchange meeting, Dean Wang Yulin introduced the history and development of China Ordnance Industry Group Corporation. Vice President Wang Xiaopeng introduced the Group's military science and technology key projects and the research of the relevant projects of the Academy of Military Sciences, and looked forward to the Academy of Military Sciences and the Institute. Prospects for future cooperation, and hope that the two sides will contact and communicate more and carry out further exchanges.
Director Wu Xiaoguang pointed out that the spirit of the aircraft carrier, the spirit of two bombs and one star, and the manned space spirit all originated from the military spirit. The development of Chinese military industry began with the development of Chinese weapons. The weapon industry is an important component of the national defense science and technology industry. I hope that the two sides will carry out closer cooperation in the future and better fulfill their missions and tasks.
At the meeting, the two sides also carried out in-depth exchanges on current research, product development, and future maritime operational needs.
Director Wu Xiaoguang and his party also visited the exhibition hall of the Academy of Military Sciences.
When comparing CV-17 image with what's visible there, It's evident that the island of that obsucred model is in the same position, roughly of same size, and features even some same details, as position and height of antennas. It is quite possible the model is CV-17, despite it being censored.
Either that or the model has a very similar island layout.
Either that or the model has a very similar island layout.
I think it's unlikely that the 003 will have such a similar layout for the island. It's long been speculated (based on insider info) that the 003's island will be shortened by as much as 30%.
Of course, it's still too early to say for sure. Maybe the model really is 003, in which case the existence of an exhaust can put the nuclear propulsion theory to rest. All these details will become more obvious as the modules come together.
So this next carrier that's under construction is going to have various featured designed and scaled around J-15, as it's the only fighter that will serve in the first few years, and will probably make up half of the airwing for the first decade or service. That's assuming J-31 will indeed become the next carrier borne fighter, and enter service by 2024-2025 or so. (any other design would probably enter service even later)
Here's the thing. J-15 is a large plane. And it's less about deck space, though its length is quite problematic, and more about its weight. Su-33 weighs 19 tons empty. To reach 3000 km ferry range, it requires 9 more tons of fuel. If one wants to add some semi-decent bomb strike load, that's another 3-4 tons. That goes up to 31-32 tons. That's quite a bit for a catapult to launch. Now, J-15 may be slightly different, but I find it unlikely it could have shaved more than a ton of weight, at best. We're still looking at MTOW of over 30 tons.
And catapults, regardless of whether they're steam or EM, need to be larger in order to launch heavier planes. US has designed a catapult that can launch 26 ton MTOW plane, which is 80 meters long. It also has a catapult which is 25% longer, and can launch a 35 ton plane at same speed. It then also has the EMALS, which is 90 meters long, in between of the two, which can launch roughly 38-39 ton plane at same speed (for this one i had to interpolate some data from other catapults so its not as precise, due to original data refering to a different speed)
So PLAN would really benefit from deciding what sort of planes they want to launch and then sticking to those values. I don't imagine there's going to be anything heavier than J-15, and even J-15 is really too heavy and not efficient. Ideally, a 15 or so ton plane (Empty) that can launch with 15 tons of fuel/payload would be ideal. It would make it even more efficient than J-15, fuel/range wise. (with perhaps being a bit less efficient only in heavy bomb load scenarios)
J-31 is close though, and get there one day. v1 demonstrator was a lighter, simpler plane with loaded weigh of 17.5 tons. As far as we know, it's v2 demonstrator is roughly a 13-14 ton plane empty, (my personal estimate) with officially declared 28 ton mtow. Carrier borne version is probably going to be heavier, possibly over 14 tons, and if has a wing designed better for low speeds needed for carrier ops, mtow may rise by a ton or so as well.
So J-31 variant may be just in the sweet spot, size wise. the AEW plane is very likely going to remain under 30 tons of MTOW, as E-2D weighs just 26 tons. Even if chinese plane is somewhat bigger, it's hard to imagine it will be that much bigger to go over 30 tons.
The only reason to design the carrier to accept planes of over 30 tons is if new techs some day enforce a doctrine of large, heavy planes. That may or may not happen, but if it does, it wont happen for another 15+ years. In which time new carrier designs will be made, as PLAN is just starting to build its carrier fleet.
So designing the carrier with features for heavier planes would be unwise, in my opinion, as it would make the current carrier less efficient.
A carrier designed solely around J-31 could be more efficient than one designed around (or forced to accept using) J-15.
Catapults could be made shorter. (though that doesn't seem to be the case with the developmental cats seen in China, compared with US EMALS. maybe Chinese EM cat simply gives less power over covered distance?)
Elevators could be made shorter, intruding less into the main deck, as well as lighter, as they don't need to lift as heavy loads.
Parking space, both in hangar and on the deck, can be more efficiently used, with parked planes intruding less on the main deck, and more planes carried inside the hangar.
Overall, for same number of planes, the carrier could be made a bit smaller. Or the number of planes could be made bigger, if carrier size doesn't change.
I believe there's a reason why US went back from larger planes on their carrier and standardized around 14-15 ton (empty weight) planes, with 30-31 ton MTOW. Their new planes are more efficient, compared to Cold war designs (which Su-33 and J-15 are) and they achieve similar MTOWs with planes that are smaller and less heavy.
So while this carrier that's building will have to be designed around J-15, perhaps the carrier after that one doesn't have to be. Even if it has the same hull.
Here's the thing. J-15 is a large plane. And it's less about deck space, though its length is quite problematic, and more about its weight. Su-33 weighs 19 tons empty. To reach 3000 km ferry range, it requires 9 more tons of fuel. If one wants to add some semi-decent bomb strike load, that's another 3-4 tons. That goes up to 31-32 tons. That's quite a bit for a catapult to launch. Now, J-15 may be slightly different, but I find it unlikely it could have shaved more than a ton of weight, at best. We're still looking at MTOW of over 30 tons.
And catapults, regardless of whether they're steam or EM, need to be larger in order to launch heavier planes. US has designed a catapult that can launch 26 ton MTOW plane, which is 80 meters long. It also has a catapult which is 25% longer, and can launch a 35 ton plane at same speed. It then also has the EMALS, which is 90 meters long, in between of the two, which can launch roughly 38-39 ton plane at same speed (for this one i had to interpolate some data from other catapults so its not as precise, due to original data refering to a different speed)
So PLAN would really benefit from deciding what sort of planes they want to launch and then sticking to those values. I don't imagine there's going to be anything heavier than J-15, and even J-15 is really too heavy and not efficient. Ideally, a 15 or so ton plane (Empty) that can launch with 15 tons of fuel/payload would be ideal. It would make it even more efficient than J-15, fuel/range wise. (with perhaps being a bit less efficient only in heavy bomb load scenarios)
J-31 is close though, and get there one day. v1 demonstrator was a lighter, simpler plane with loaded weigh of 17.5 tons. As far as we know, it's v2 demonstrator is roughly a 13-14 ton plane empty, (my personal estimate) with officially declared 28 ton mtow. Carrier borne version is probably going to be heavier, possibly over 14 tons, and if has a wing designed better for low speeds needed for carrier ops, mtow may rise by a ton or so as well.
So J-31 variant may be just in the sweet spot, size wise. the AEW plane is very likely going to remain under 30 tons of MTOW, as E-2D weighs just 26 tons. Even if chinese plane is somewhat bigger, it's hard to imagine it will be that much bigger to go over 30 tons.
The only reason to design the carrier to accept planes of over 30 tons is if new techs some day enforce a doctrine of large, heavy planes. That may or may not happen, but if it does, it wont happen for another 15+ years. In which time new carrier designs will be made, as PLAN is just starting to build its carrier fleet.
So designing the carrier with features for heavier planes would be unwise, in my opinion, as it would make the current carrier less efficient.
A carrier designed solely around J-31 could be more efficient than one designed around (or forced to accept using) J-15.
Catapults could be made shorter. (though that doesn't seem to be the case with the developmental cats seen in China, compared with US EMALS. maybe Chinese EM cat simply gives less power over covered distance?)
Elevators could be made shorter, intruding less into the main deck, as well as lighter, as they don't need to lift as heavy loads.
Parking space, both in hangar and on the deck, can be more efficiently used, with parked planes intruding less on the main deck, and more planes carried inside the hangar.
Overall, for same number of planes, the carrier could be made a bit smaller. Or the number of planes could be made bigger, if carrier size doesn't change.
I believe there's a reason why US went back from larger planes on their carrier and standardized around 14-15 ton (empty weight) planes, with 30-31 ton MTOW. Their new planes are more efficient, compared to Cold war designs (which Su-33 and J-15 are) and they achieve similar MTOWs with planes that are smaller and less heavy.
So while this carrier that's building will have to be designed around J-15, perhaps the carrier after that one doesn't have to be. Even if it has the same hull.
I can see where you are coming from, but I think arguments could also be made that being designed to accommodate and launch a larger and/or heavier aircraft also means the carrier will have the option to carry future larger planes as well, in particular I'm thinking about UCAVs. Considering 003 will likely remain in service for decades, I wouldn't be surprised if an intent to have future large, heavy aircraft and UCAVs was part of the plan.
At the very least, the PLAN are designing their carriers and overall carrier capability with various different aircraft and subsystems of different lineages, and I think designing 003 around J-15 is the most efficient and best option out of the hand that they were given in terms of technologies and systems they had available to them.
I'd certainly think that it will have been better to have designed 003 around J-15 than, say, Mig-29K.
UCAVs, whenever they come (probably not in the next ten years) are very likely to be under 30 tons MTOW. Since they are unmanned, they will basically enjoy performance of a several tons more heavier manned planes. It would have to be a really huge jump in size from all the demonstrators we see today to make them larger than that, as today's demonstrators are basically 15-20 ton planes which still outrange today's larger planes.
US went down with maximum size of their planes a bit, and that's despite the stealthy features of F-35C. Unless the next generation of planes (not J-31 but something that comes later) basically dispenses with fighter concept and uses more of an arsenal plane concept (with heavy lasers, bunch of missiles etc) there is really no need to go for larger planes. And chances of such doctrinal change is... well, still sort of slim. And it won't happen in the next 20 years, at least.
Also, whatever fighter PLAN does put on carriers after J-15, it's likely going to be its only manned fighter for decades to come. So if J-31 variant does end up on carriers come 2025 or so, there won't be a need for a carrier designed on anything else but that plane (and smaller/equally heavy UCAVs, AEW planes) until 2050 or so. Yes, there will still be J-15 around, but it would be more prudent, at that point, to keep a few dozen of those to a carrier made specific for them, (basically this 00X that's being built now) than the mix and match both types on the next 3 carriers to be built. Actually, due to relative inefficiency of the design, it would be best if J-15s would be retired prematurely and fully replaced by J-31 on the carriers launched after 2025 by early 2030s. If money permits.
US went down with maximum size of their planes a bit, and that's despite the stealthy features of F-35C. Unless the next generation of planes (not J-31 but something that comes later) basically dispenses with fighter concept and uses more of an arsenal plane concept (with heavy lasers, bunch of missiles etc) there is really no need to go for larger planes. And chances of such doctrinal change is... well, still sort of slim. And it won't happen in the next 20 years, at least.
Also, whatever fighter PLAN does put on carriers after J-15, it's likely going to be its only manned fighter for decades to come. So if J-31 variant does end up on carriers come 2025 or so, there won't be a need for a carrier designed on anything else but that plane (and smaller/equally heavy UCAVs, AEW planes) until 2050 or so. Yes, there will still be J-15 around, but it would be more prudent, at that point, to keep a few dozen of those to a carrier made specific for them, (basically this 00X that's being built now) than the mix and match both types on the next 3 carriers to be built. Actually, due to relative inefficiency of the design, it would be best if J-15s would be retired prematurely and fully replaced by J-31 on the carriers launched after 2025 by early 2030s. If money permits.