CV-18 Fujian/003 CATOBAR carrier thread

kwaigonegin

Colonel
LOL, I guess that's true if someone thinks carriers are particularly useful for China.

Of course they are. China was a seafaring nation not too different than the US.. they just had a momentary gap in their timeline due to the politics/war etc. They are just going back to those days now that their economy can sustain a big naval force.

Carriers are essential part of any navy even more so with a country like China with a very long coastline and important SLOCs to protect.. not to mention less than friendly neighbors (to her) out to sea.

As a matter a fact if I'm a big dog in PLAN or big shot politician I would even argue carrier/naval air power is essentially the TOP priority of all military matters and to be quite honest I think that's what they're also thinking as well.
 

Jeff Head

General
Registered Member
As a matter a fact if I'm a big dog in PLAN or big shot politician I would even argue carrier/naval air power is essentially the TOP priority of all military matters and to be quite honest I think that's what they're also thinking as well.
Well, given what they have done in the last few years....

1. Purchased and completely refit a relatively modern carrier, which they launched and commissioned.
2. Built an expensive land based training center to train naval aviators.
3. Built an expensive land based logistical/test mockup of the entire carrier.
4. Redesigned and produced their own naval, carrier based strike fighter, and put it in series production.
5. Designed and built catapult testing and training center for carrier aviation.
6. Documented the initial carrier design, improved it, and now ready to launch their 2nd carrier
7. Built two complete new bases to as home ports for carrier strike groups.
8 Redesigned their strike fighter for catapult operation.
9. Worked on catapult launched AEW aircraft design.
10. Have apparently completed a CATOBAR convectional carrier design.
11. Have started building their first conventionally powered CATOBAR carrier.

Number eleven may be up for question because the definitive proof has not been seen...but given all else they have done and are doing, and given the clear indications of moving toward CATOBAR with a catapult testing and training center, a new design for the J-15 for catapult launch, and the catapult capable AEW designs...it is obvious that this is their intent.

So given all of those pesos they have spent...there is no doubt that it is of high, extreme priority to the Chinese government and military.
 
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Jeff Head

General
Registered Member
11. Built two new naval bases for carrier strike groups
12. Built two hostel ships for carrier training assistance
Excellent...and thanks.

I went ahead and added the two bases they have built into my list.

The US has three home port naval bases for carriers:

1. Norfolk VA
2. San Diego CA
3. Bremerton WA

The US also has a fourth based for its only forward deployed carrier strike group, and that is in:

4. Yokosuka, Japan.

So, if they built those bases properly, each one could be a home port for either two or three carriers.

We shall see.
 

Intrepid

Major
We don't know, how many surface combatants, submarines and fast combat support ships will serve the carrier strike groups. But it looks like many are built to do so.
 

vesicles

Colonel
All of the above is true but that is not mutually exclusive with China's political leadership wanting to de-prioritize or make leaner its carrier program at this time.

- The PLA is going through a major structural re-organization
- Is subject to a major ongoing anti-corruption drive which goes all the way to the top
- The Chinese economy is going through a transformational rough patch
- Even the Chinese defense industry appears to be going through some significant re-alignments
- The international environment have also become more eventful, tense, and risky for China in recent years and is most likely to continue going in that direction

All these things lend weight to a re-evaluation and re-prioritization by the top level leadership of as costly, long term, and limited short term utility a program as the carrier program given that China has plenty other defense programs to pursue that have at least more utility shorter term.

The carrier program is a part of China's long-term strategic planning. All the points listed above would be short-term obstacles. You don't want to divert or even give up your long-terms goals because of some short-term obstacles.

It's like you are driving from point A to point B. All of a sudden, you realize that you are running low on gas. What do you do? Do you turn around and go home? That is certainly an option, especially if you haven't reached the point of no return. You can also change direction to go to point C, which is a little closer to you than point B. But the question is: Do you plan the trip to reach your goal, or do you change your goal based on how easy the trip is?? the answer should be obvious. You figure out ways to solve problems along the way, like getting more gas, and get to your destination.

Undoubtedly, there have been, are and still will be many obstacles on their road to military advancement. As long as their goal is logical and achievable, they should maintain course no matter how hard the road is. None of their growing pains should be excuses for them to stop or change directions.

Now, about the logic of having a carrier program. Most of the rationale for naysayers have been about specific obstacles. As I explained above, no obstacles should be excuses for not trying something hard.

Another interesting rationale for naysayers is that, no matter how hard China tries, it will never be able to compete with the US on CV ops. Thus, China should give up. Such rationale is inherently flawed. First of all, China has a carrier program to safeguard its own national interests, not to compete with another nation. As long as their carriers can do the job, namely protect China's interests, then their carrier program is warranted.

Carrier operations around the world for the past 60-70 years have shown the necessity of having carriers in navies. The need of certain weapon systems is defined by the geopolitical environment in the world, as well as all other weapon systems available. Certain weapon becomes less useful because of changes in the geopolitical environment, and/or the shift in how battle/war is fought. For instance, manned fighters have been called into questions because of the development of drones. However, there has not been any evidence to question the benefit of having carriers. The absolute dominance of carriers on the high sea has been demonstrated time and again.

Yes, China's carrier program cannot compete with that of the US, nor is it intended to do so. Keep in mind that China wants its carriers to protect its own interests. The better they operate their carriers, the more effective they can protect their national interests. that is the goal.
 

Jeff Head

General
Registered Member
We don't know, how many surface combatants, submarines and fast combat support ships will serve the carrier strike groups. But it looks like many are built to do so.
I expect that ultimately, for peace time a PLA CSG will consist probably of two Type 052D DDGs and a Type 055 DDG, as well as one SSN.

In war time, or in high vulnerability situations, they will probably add at least two Type 054A FFGs to that group and maybe another SSN and one more DDG.

The of course, somewhere, regularly rotating in for replenishment, there will be one or two replenishment vessels (probably one of the new Type 901 AORs) which itself will have probably one DDG and one FFG escorting it.
 

Jeff Head

General
Registered Member
vesicles said:
Carrier operations around the world for the past 60-70 years have shown the necessity of having carriers in navies. The need of certain weapon systems is defined by the geopolitical environment in the world, as well as all other weapon systems available... The absolute dominance of carriers on the high sea has been demonstrated time and again.

Yes, China's carrier program cannot compete with that of the US, nor is it intended to do so. Keep in mind that China wants its carriers to protect its own interests. The better they operate their carriers, the more effective they can protect their national interests. that is the goal.
Good points my friend, and well said.

When you look at China's Silk Road goals, particularly the sea portion, it is clear that China is going to view the SLOCs along that path through the South China Sea, thorough the Malacca Straits into the Indian Ocean, and then through the Gulf of Oman up into the Red Sea through the Suez canal and into the Mediterranean Sea as vital sea lanes for its national interests, including the branch that goes over to Eastern Africa.

I expect the Carrier groups, Surface Groups, and individually deployed SSNs to be deployed along and to the proximity of those SLOCs to protect them and as a message to others that the PLAN intends to protect them for its own national interests.

It's Navy of 10-15 years ago simply could never have done this.

They are building a Navy now that they feel, and hope that other nations will see and feel...can protect them.
 
@Blitzio , @Kwaigonegin , @Vesicles , @JeffHead

Wow, everyone's jumping my previous post. I am just saying China might be streamlining and slowing down their carrier program, not cancelling it.

It is exactly because the carrier program is a long term project that it can afford to be slowed down in the short term without missing any long term target date. In the meantime resources can be prioritized on other projects that are relatively "behind" and/or are more critical or useful nearer term, some of which will be needed to make good use out of carriers anyways.

Many aircraft types and aircraft engines are first to come to mind. Then there are aircraft numbers which are lacking not just for any carriers but for the PLAN and PLA at large such as with helicopters. China has to prioritize holistically including scenarios where carriers are of marginal use or irrelevant such as the Koreas and far Western China/Central Asia/South Asia.

For China to be able to concurrently both defend the homeland and protect SLOCs/carry out expeditionary missions of any kind, which realistically has to be a long term goal, they will need at least double their current number of top-of-the-line destroyers, frigates, SSNs, and corresponding support ships. A few 055 destroyers/cruisers and additional overseas friendly ports/bases would also help.

These assets, excepting bases, are plenty useful and more flexible than carriers on their own, and present a better opportunity cost calculation in the shorter term for critical scenarios such as Taiwan, ECS, and SCS. For a Chinese carrier force to make a difference in these scenarios, which may all explode at once, they have to posses at least 6 CSGs. This is best achieved in the long term through building the rest of the CSGs, including aircraft, before the additional carriers and practicing with existing carriers in the meantime.
 

vesicles

Colonel
@Blitzio , @Kwaigonegin , @Vesicles , @JeffHead

Wow, everyone's jumping my previous post. I am just saying China might be streamlining and slowing down their carrier program, not cancelling it.

Well, if everyone disagrees with you, you might want to rethink your theory...

It is exactly because the carrier program is a long term project that it can afford to be slowed down in the short term without missing any long term target date. In the meantime resources can be prioritized on other projects that are relatively "behind" and/or are more critical or useful nearer term, some of which will be needed to make good use out of carriers anyways.
First of all, they have waited. If you look at the timelines of their weapons development programs, you will see that they patiently waited, studied and planned all their projects based on their financial and technical situations. They started their carrier program way after they started everything else. Heck, they left the CV-16 alone and untouched for almost a decade without doing anything to it (nothing visible to us at least). So they have waited. And based on their assessment of their overall economic, political and military conditions as well as their technical readiness, they feel that it is now a good time to go full throttle on the carrier program. So that's why they are going full steam ahead on the CV-17.

Secondly, China is at a stage of its economic development, where they can afford to do all these things simultaneously. In fact, they have been tackling multiple high-profile weapons development programs without affecting their economic development.

Many aircraft types and aircraft engines are first to come to mind. Then there are aircraft numbers which are lacking not just for any carriers but for the PLAN and PLA at large such as with helicopters. China has to prioritize holistically including scenarios where carriers are of marginal use or irrelevant such as the Koreas and far Western China/Central Asia/South Asia.

For China to be able to concurrently both defend the homeland and protect SLOCs/carry out expeditionary missions of any kind, which realistically has to be a long term goal, they will need at least double their current number of top-of-the-line destroyers, frigates, SSNs, and corresponding support ships. A few 055 destroyers/cruisers and additional overseas friendly ports/bases would also help.

These assets, excepting bases, are plenty useful and more flexible than carriers on their own, and present a better opportunity cost calculation in the shorter term for critical scenarios such as Taiwan, ECS, and SCS. For a Chinese carrier force to make a difference in these scenarios, which may all explode at once, they have to posses at least 6 CSGs. This is best achieved in the long term through building the rest of the CSGs, including aircraft, before the additional carriers and practicing with existing carriers in the meantime.

They are doing all these things as we speak. are we not seeing the commissioning of Type 052Ds almost on a bimonthly basis? What about all those 056's? Just take a close look at the SDF's Navy page. You will see how busy the PLAN is.

You cannot emphasize one and ignore the other. All these systems, including the carriers, destroyers, SSNs, etc, must be integrated together in order to maximize their efficacy. You can't focus solely on destroyers and ignore the carriers, just as you cannot ignore the destroyers and focus exclusively on the carriers.

It may look slow at first because they have to develop all these systems simultaneously: one carrier, plus a few destroyers, plus a few SSNs, etc. It certainly won't be as fast as coming up with dozens of destroyers and SSNs within a year's time if they slow down their carrier development. However, those new highly advanced destroyers, which have been designed to escort carriers as one of their most important missions, would be used to only partial of their optimal capabilities. And without carriers, they can also be vulnerable to attacks. And obviously, without proper escort, carriers will also be vulnerable.

So you need all systems integrated together to maximize their offensive and defensive capabilities. It may look slow, but every system commissioned will be maximized to its full capacity and well-protected. then every new addition would be a solid advancement to their overall capabilities. They are building a solid foundation. Every brick added will be as solid as it can be, instead of just throwing bricks to a loose pile.
 
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