CV-18 Fujian/003 CATOBAR carrier thread

[Jeff Head]

He is very specifically claiming that China's EM cat is better than EMALS, presumably based on open source information as well as any espionage he has in hand. He is essentially saying that if his EM cat is magically teleported into a Chinese CATOBAR carrier right this minute, it would perform better than EMALS currently is.

Yes, that is what he is saying.

And my point is that this is a statement that is easily made but cannot be proven.

But we cam make a judgement based in the evidence beofre us, the history of the participants, their experiences and what they have actually developed.

He did also say that the Chinese were ahead of the US...and not just ahead but "far" ahead of the US.

"'I can state clearly to everybody [that] our EMALS is much better than that currently used on the Ford by the US. Our technology is much more mature...We are far ahead of the US."

Sorry, but I do not believe any of that is true.

"Better" cannot be proven until it is available and operating and "performing." The Chinese EMALS is not performing in the environment where it is intended to operate...at sea on a carrier. Nor is there a carrier that the Chinese have built that can operate it. But we an evaluate it it based on what we see and make a judgement

I think it is clear that the US is ahead based on the simple fact that the only nation in the world actually operating EMALs, and doing it successfully on a commissioned carrier is the US Navy.

So his is in essence a statement without true premise other than it is clear that he is trying to convince the Chinese leadership to use it on their next carrier, which itself implies that their are others in the Chinese leadership who perhaps disagree and need convincing.

To me that is the telling point.

That the Chinese are testing an EMALs is not in question. That at some point they will put it on a carrier is also not in question.

Anyhow, we have beat this to death IMHO and now we an wait...probably quite a number of years, until something is actually avaialable to actually compare against.

...and in the mean tine, the US will continue building carriers that are actuakky using EMALs when no one else on earth is.

 

[longmarch]

Of course Yin's statement is his own claim and no one has authority to prove it.

You can draw parallel with PESA vs. AESA. China adopts AESA since 052C while Burke still uses PESA. So China can claim that the radar on 052C is better than what Burke has, and without knowing real performance numbers it's certainly possible in theory. But in reality, we don't know for sure.

Here for EMALS, China is saying mine is DC and by its intrinsic design it's superior than AC based system which is born with too many problems and drawbacks. If everyone agrees that DC is the future, China can certainly make this claim even though no one knows for sure how far ahead they are and how these two finished systems compare against each. Even though Ford is already operational, we know it still face problems, otherwise Trump would not have threatened to go back to steam.

So without knowing actual situation we are just running is circle with each side insisting its own claim, and this kind of discussion will not be that productive beyond this point.

What's more important to note, is that in both cases, AESA and DC based EMALS, China is not blindly following US lead. Instead, China takes a methodlogical and systematic approach to evaluate the available options, which gives her an OPPORTUNITY to leap ahead. This is what I have been hoping for,and it's of strategic importance to outside observers. Certainly more important than arguing ”mine is better than yours" from one's own angle.

Because it shows that China has the technology, resources, and system in place to make potentially optimal decisions (certainly look so to me), even though they have their own struggles and limitations (interest groups, funding, etc.).

That itself is significant. And when China finally comes out with a conventionally powered EMALS carrier, in less than 8 years I would say, it'll be something China can be really proud of, because it'll be one of its own kind and fit China's needs.

 

[Intrepid]

I do not know any way to distinguish which system is the better. I'm interested in whether a system can launch a deckload of aircraft with maximum take-off mass in a short space of time. This has not been demonstrated by either system. I trust both systems to provide this performance at some point.

 

[Jeff Head]

Well, the CCP is known for having very effective spies. Many credit the defeat of the much richer, better-armed, better-educated, better-trained KMT to the CCP's spying prowess. They are also known to be especially good hackers. (I think by now, I don't need to cite anything for that LOL) On top of that, the US is quite transparent with their progress. Not that I normally quote Trump as a source, here is an excerpt from the president's interactions with an unnamed naval officer in May 2017:

I said, “You don’t use steam anymore for catapult?” “No sir.” I said, “Ah, how is it working?” “Sir, not good. Not good. Doesn’t have the power.”

via

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Here are another two public articles both dated June 2017 about the issues with American EMALS:

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Read both as they cite different issues (from each other and from the Trump interview).

To their credit, they did say that they can get at least 1 of the issues fixed and good to go by 2019:

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But if the Chinese EMALS has no such problems, that right there can tell Ying Zhuo that he's working with an inherently superior design.

Sorry...but we have numerous...many videos of aircraft being launched from the Ford at Sea.

I posted links to three of those videos earlier.

There is open debate in the United States and their are vested political groups on both sides of the issue.

But I know engineers who work on the problems and I have seen the raw video footage of the aircraft having been launched for years at Lakehurst, and now being launched at Sea. So, you can believe what some who may have political interests to the contrary may say, or you an believe your own eyes of the aircraft being launched.

On the carrier, they have increased the number of aircraft on the carrier and the sortie rate.

They had done thousands of launches on land and any major power deficiencies would have been noticed then and corrected.

But now they are at sea and they are launching aircraft with all sorts of laods as they now move forward towards initial operating capability.

 

[Jeff Head]

I am now going to make a decision as a Super Moderator.

This issue has been discussed of what the Ford can or cannot do to death.

The Ford's capabilities and these contentions comparisons are off topic on this thread about the Chinese carrier or about the Chinese catapults. It is just leading to arguments and ultimately leading to flame wars.

No more discussion comparing the two in this fashion will be allowed. There is more than enough information for anyone to read, look at, and make their own decision.

Any further contention on this will be deleted. If it continues there will be warnings. If it continues byond that there will be suspensiosn.

DO NOT REPLY TO THE MODERATION

 

[Jeff Head]

Anyone heard any chatter from any big shrimps on whether construction has started?

erhaps even modules being put together for bringing together at a shipyard even?

 

[Intrepid]

In 2005, we were not sure if the Chinese could safely operate a arresting wire system. Now we are not sure if they can operate EMALS safely. They will do that. And whether it is better or worse than the American EMALS? Who wants to determine that? For what? If it works, it's good enough.

 

[delft]

I hope that in future we will reserve the term EMALS for the USN EM cat system and call the Chinese one EM cat until we get a better name.
I obviously cannot compare both EM cat systems but Admiral WU knows all the troubles of EMALS as far as they were published and all the troubles of his own system. So he has a good view of the matter and if he lied about it that would damage his own reputation as well as that of PLAN when it gets known with the introduction of his EM cat in not many years time.
So let's hear from that admiral.

 

[FORBIN]

If they were so confident they would have made the announcement, but instead all we see is, as Jeff said, someone trying hard to convince everybody else that their EMALS is ready to be adopted...

Exact maybe they have do good job possible but impossible to be sure for the US i know all the difference..
As for all the rest their mysteries are turning against them and the 2nd military Army for infos/news is treated as the 10 -15 th many persons and author don't want spend a huge amount of time to " begg " infos.

BTW not shame to use steam cats allow launch a aircraft all 20 sec ( actual US used ) STOBAR CV 1 by mn...​

 

[FORBIN]

If they were so confident they would have made the announcement, but instead all we see is, as Jeff said, someone trying hard to convince everybody else that their EMALS is ready to be adopted...

Exact maybe they have do good job possible but impossible to be sure for the US i know all the difference..
As for all the rest their mysteries are turning against them and the 2nd military Army for infos/news is treated as the 10 -15 th many persons and author don't want spend a huge amount of time to " begg " infos.

BTW not shame to use steam cats allow launch a aircraft all 20 sec ( actual US used ) STOBAR CV 1 by mn...