CV-18 Fujian/003 CATOBAR carrier thread

Lethe

Captain
After reading the Twitter threads on foolsball and sugar_wsnbn, I was thinking that it doesn't make sense for the PLA to build any more Kuznetsov-based CATOBARs that have reached the limits of structural development. I don't know when, but the next carrier has to be a CVN!

What makes CV-18 a "Kuznetsov-based" carrier? The powerplant? In that case Burke III is a "Spruance-based" design from 1970.

Never in my 20 years serving with the US Navy did I EVER hear the term CATOBAR. I first saw that term in this forum nearly 20 years ago..

I believe the term comes from the project definition/analysis of alternatives stage for the UK's CVF program, late-1990s to early-2000s.

Of course it doesn't actually matter where the term comes from, only that it is useful in particular contexts.
 
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tamsen_ikard

Junior Member
Registered Member
The arguments for Nuclear have been discussed at this point, things such as being able to run for a long time without refuel or having more aviation fuel.

But just talking about why A is better than B misses the whole point that maybe its better in peace time fighting against weak opponents, it might not be optimal strategically against another superpower fighting a total war.

German Panzer or Tiger tanks were bigger and technically superior in every way, but they were a strategic failure compared soviet T-34. Soviets correctly understood that a tank has survivability of just a couple days in the battlefield and doesn't need all these fancy things. It just needs to perform a few missions well and quality will be compensated by the ability to mass produce the tank and also ease of maintenance. T-34 was mass in the 100s of thousands compared to a few thousand German premium tanks and germans ultimately suffered because of it. They failed to grasp the strategic nature of warfare.

Just because US uses nuclear carriers when it faced no peer opponents for the last 30 years doesn't mean China should or will follow the same strategy. China has a different regional landscape and different strategic needs.

China faces pro-US countries like Japan, Korea, Philippines or even distant opponents like India. US itself is also likely to join any war. So, it faces an opponent that will have very sophisticated anti-ship missiles. Essentially they will apply A2/AD carrier killer strategy against China. In this kind of threat environment, the chances of a carrier being able to survive and also be useful in battle could be quite limited. Maybe multiple carrier could be lost in a single battle in a war China is likely to fight.

So, I don't think having the ability to run for 20 years non-stop or carrying more aviation fuel is all that important when the carrier may have a lifetime of just weeks in a real fight. It might be more important to have smaller but more numerous carriers that can spread out the air cover more. It might be more useful to have cheaper, more maintenable or more numerous Carriers compared to having a few extremely expensive nuclear carriers which must be protected at all costs with too much resources. Distributed lethality is the buzzword nowadays.

In fact, even having carriers could be obsolete in the modern battlefield when air-defense and anti-ship missile tech has advanced so much. Maybe the future of naval battle is drones carriers and missiles. So, I don't think China having a nuclear carrier based Navy is a done deal as some people here are saying.

I think China could just build a few carriers just to have another option during wartime and show the flag in peace time. But the primary arsenal of the navy could be its destroyers or drone carriers. I think future naval battle is changing and assuming 30 year old US strategy is still useful or applicable to China is dangerous.
 
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Heliox

Junior Member
Registered Member
I think what he was saying is not that it isn't a real term or acronym but rather it's not a word that is commonly used to refer to aircraft carriers in everyday talk even amongst those who are actually in the Navy serving aboard carriers.

First world problems :p
When all you operate are Cat Carriers, then the word Carrier is synonymous with such.
When you operate more of them than there are fingers to count on, (correct me if I'm wrong) even lightning carriers a.k.a LHDs don't even enter the picture when the term "Carriers" are used.

The rest of us have to contend with the various permutations of takeoff and landing methods and even resorting to "mini-" qualifiers to one-up each other in the carrier power table stakes.
 

obj 705A

Junior Member
Registered Member
So, I don't think having the ability to run for 20 years non-stop or carrying more aviation fuel is all that important when the carrier may have a lifetime of just weeks in a real fight. It might be more important to have smaller but more numerous carriers that can spread out the air cover more. It might be more useful to have cheaper, more maintenable or more numerous Carriers compared to having a few extremely expensive nuclear carriers which must be protected at all costs with too much resources. Distributed lethality is the buzzword nowadays.

In fact, even having carriers could be obsolete in the modern battlefield when air-defense and anti-ship missile tech has advanced so much. Maybe the future of naval battle is drones carriers and missiles. So, I don't think China having a nuclear carrier based Navy is a done deal as some people here are saying.
there is no one ultimate weapon. whether it is a mini carrier or a nuclear super carrier, a carrier is useless against a peer enemy only if you have few of it, for example if you have a total of just two carriers then if you lose just one that means you lost 50% of your carrier force, if you lose two that means you lost 100%.

if I remember correctly a leak from one of the reliable leakers (can't remember his name) said that China will eventually have 10 CVNs, that is not a small token force, that is real usefull force . add to that whatever number of Type 076 China aquires and you end up with a sizable CATOBAR carrier force (leave aside whether type 076 will carry manned fighters or not, whether it carries manned fighters or just stealthy long range drones all of these will have their uses).

in a war between the US & China I believe the American & Chinese aircraft carriers would be one of the first ships to be sunk or at least damaged out of commision because they are priority targets, ofcourse that means dozens of thousands of lives could be lost but that is fine. massive human losses are to be expected in a world war even at the sea.
 
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