Crisis in the Ukraine

I take it that Russia providing possible intel and allowing their arms exporters to supply 3rd rate military stuff to the militia is = to Russia invasion of east Ukraine?

Honestly, no one here will deny that Russia is aiding the militia in some ways not tantamount to direct military intervention which we all know what that will looks like.
What we need to admit is also the Russia is forcing the militia to stand down at the conference table and accept a general ceasefire as agreed. Very clear from Cassad and Strelkov that Russia used humanitarian blackmail to the residents caught in the fighting to force the militia to accept the Minsk Agreement.
Strelkov was also forced to resign as a precondition of aid delivery.

The Russians also turned off the "PX" used to supply ammo and fuel to the militia to immobilise them from further actions on the fronts.

I can see Putin fulfilling his promise to get the militia to stop fighting but I have yet to see an honest reciprocal move from Kiev or NATO to stop the artillery bombardment of civilian areas.

Dannhill said:

Honestly, no one here will deny that Russia is aiding the militia in some ways not tantamount to direct military intervention which we all know what that will looks like.

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The last hours discussion would disagree but that's what we are all here for I guess.

SouthernSky said:

The International community's at times wayward hand does not change the discussion at hand.

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I think the discussion at hand is how exactly you believe that Russia has been intervening in the Ukraine and the evidence with which you support it.

I think the disagreement has more to do with terminology involved that such aid from Moscow is equal to outright Russian military intervention.

Because then we'd have to consider that US and EU have also directly intervened in the Ukraine crisis because they supplied the money that keep the Kiev punitive actions ongoing.

SampanViking said:

I think the discussion at hand is how exactly you believe that Russia has been intervening in the Ukraine and the evidence with which you support it.

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A trap that is easy to fall into SV.

t2contra said:

No one is disputing that Russia is supporting the "pro Russian separatists". What has not been proven irrefutably is direct Russian involvement. It is not a good foreboding to me if Russia is directly involved.

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That is true now t2, but if you look at many of the early posts on this thread, it seems to me that many were in fact denying Russian involvement?????

SampanViking said:

The deliberate arming of these groups and sending them into the East "to pacify" the ethnic Russian is as irresponsible and reprehensible as would a similar arming and sending the Klu Klux Klan as a National Guard to "pacify" Ferguson!

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The Ukraine has been embroiled in a civil war where provinces in the country, egged on by Russia, are trying to gain autonomy or break away from the Ukraine.

Sending their troops into the area to fight a civil war/rebellion is nothing similar...whatsoever...to what occurred in Ferguson, which was some looting based on a single domestic criminal event. It would no be "like," that at all...they are wholly disproportionate.

It is highly inflaming, and offensive to make such a comparison. And invoking the KKK is just pouring fuel on that fire.

Of course Russia has been involved in this entire mess, and providing, at the very least, logistical, intelligence, and material to those fighting against the Ukraine government. Of course the west has been helping the Ukraine, albeit to a much lesser extent militarily, with some advisors and probably some intelligence. The west has definitely been imposing sanctions on Russia as a result.

But to throw in a zinger like this is not something we should encourage and is itself, IMHO, against SD rules.

SampanViking said:

Wrong Brat and you are well out of line with your posting style, which is over the line on personal attack against Solarz on this occasion. Cut it out.

It is not a case of wait and see and that is short hand for stop talking and forget about it. No this is about your team putting up or shutting up, period. What is required is for the people making unsubstantiated allegations to put up evidence, worthy of the name and not just rubbish conspiracy theories and adolescent social media postings. As the man from AP keeps telling Hass at the State Dept. "It is not true simply because you say so, where is the evidence".

Get this also, I; like a huge and growing number of Europeans, have no intention of allowing our prosperity or well being to be sacrificed on the altar of some other failing state in desperate need of propping up. NEVER!

Also take comfort that only the inclusion of personal opinion prevents this from being formal coloured text moderation.
Mind your tone talking to other members.

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No, I am merely illustrating that painting Mr. Putin as a victim is naïve, there are a great many "victims" of Mr. Putin's machinations, while I have never suggested or "intimated" that Mr. Putin invaded Eastern Ukraine, he is a shrewd character, and seems to have achieved all of his real "objectives". I certainly don't believe either side is innocent, but my point is that when an honest investigation of all the "atrocities" and "accidents", such as MH17 come to light, then and only then will we know the truth....

on a personal note to Mr. Solarz, I highly respect Mr. Solarz, and I most certainly was not attacking him, but I do disagree that Mr. Putin is a victim, and to paint him as such is rather absurd, I was illustrating that absurdity with further absurdity. My sincere apologies if I offended you brother. brat

Jeff Head said:

The Ukraine has been embroiled in a civil war where provinces in the country, egged on by Russia, are trying to gain autonomy or break away from the Ukraine.

Sending their troops into the area to fight a civil war/rebellion is nothing similar...whatsoever...to what occurred in Ferguson, which was some looting based on a single domestic criminal event. It would no be "like," that at all...they are wholly disproportionate.

It is highly inflaming, and offensive to make such a comparison. And invoking the KKK is just pouring fuel on that fire.

Of course Russia has been involved in this entire mess, and providing, at the very least, logistical, intelligence, and material to those fighting against the Ukraine government. Of course the west has been helping the Ukraine, albeit to a much lesser extent militarily, with some advisors and probably some intelligence. The west has definitely been imposing sanctions on Russia as a result.

But to throw in a zinger like this is not something we should encourage and is itself, IMHO, against SD rules.

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Of course the notion is offensive, but not nearly as offensive as the reality of the groups being supported in the Ukraine. That is the point.
We knew the nature of the groups in the private battalions from the outset, but turned a blind eye at the beginning. A lot has happened and this blind eye is no longer possible as it is now out in the open and acknowledged even by the media. These groups go far beyond the simple nationalist sentiments typical of a civil war. They are as bad as it is possible to be.

If that is offensive to you then so be it; as with regret, I will need to offend you. I would also bid you remember that no persons or nations hold a monopoly on being offended.
We have been told for decades that we have a moral obligation to act, to prevent Nazis style Fascism assert itself in Europe again. Well it has, in the Ukraine, and we in the west rather than confronting or opposing it are giving them aid and comfort instead. This is both offensive to all civilised values and a scandal.

This situation definitely should offend you, hopefully enough to demand of your elected representatives to explain themselves of this policy.