Countering Western SAMs

crobato

Colonel
VIP Professional
AIM-120Cs have had mid-course guidance since 1996. Only the cheap countries who opt for AIM-120Bs or still operate AIM-120As are unable to utilize this feature. JTIDS is available for all aircraft that have MIDS-LVT, even PAC batteries have them. The new E-2D contains the largest AESA in production, it is far superior to the old phased array of the Patriot.

Do you know what you're talking about? AIM-120C isn't around in 1996. As a matter of fact it only started production in 2002.

And no, you're wrong saying that AIM-120B and AIM-120A don't have mid course guidance. Even the AIM-7M Sparrow back in the early eighties have midcourse guidance.

E-2D won't be in production until 2010. Stop comparing gadgets in the future vs. gadgets in the past. Compare only weapons systems in the same time region.
 

Big-E

Bug Driver
VIP Professional
Do you know what you're talking about? AIM-120C isn't around in 1996. As a matter of fact it only started production in 2002.

"The AMRAAM P3I (Pre-Planned Product Improvement) program led to the AIM-120C, first delivered in 1996"

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And no, you're wrong saying that AIM-120B and AIM-120A don't have mid course guidance. Even the AIM-7M Sparrow back in the early eighties have midcourse guidance.

Didn't you just say it was brand new?

When does AWACS midphase guide an AMRAAM? Even datallink handover is still in an experimental stage with the USAF.

Your all over the place... get back to me when you can make up your mind. :roll:

The next time you butt heads with a US Naval officer come with your best game... your gonna need it.

What's that supposed to mean? Is this some incident I missed? :confused:

Ukraine, 2001 Black Sea
 
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adeptitus

Captain
VIP Professional
AIM-120Cs have had mid-course guidance since 1996. Only the cheap countries who opt for AIM-120Bs or still operate AIM-120As are unable to utilize this feature. JTIDS is available for all aircraft that have MIDS-LVT, even PAC batteries have them. The new E-2D contains the largest AESA in production, it is far superior to the old phased array of the Patriot.

Hello,

I'm curious if you're claiming that AIM-120A/B did not have mid-course gudiance?

To best of my knowledge, AIM-120A's had an autopilot that could receive mid-course correction from aircraft via datalink. The purpose of the mid-course correction is to guide the missile close enough to the target, so it can activate its radar seeker for terminal homing-attack.

The basic AIM-120C was modified for internal carriage by F-22's and was't that advanced from the AIM-120B. However from AIM-120C-4 onward it was much improved from its predecessors.
 
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kunmingren

Junior Member
the best way to counter SAM isnt with decoys, but to with AntiRadiation Missiles. The biggest of SAM is that its stationary, and its radar is stationary. Air crafts have the advantage of mobility, and HARM missile have proven that no SAM system can match arieal advantage. If china has probelm with Western SAMs, it should do what americans do and deploy antiradiation missile.
 

crobato

Colonel
VIP Professional
Had a massive brain block. Was thinking of Phase III or C7, prior to that, the earlier C blocks are not really different from -B. Wondering why you said the -A and -B had no midcourse guidance when the link you referred to says otherwise.

Kummingren,

ARMs are not the magic bullets against SAMs, as Kosovo has shown. You can fool an ARM by decoys, especially if the decoy emits the same frequency as your radar. Also ARMs require the enemy to be cooperative by turning on their radars early. A wily SAM unit commander is expected to keep radar silence until the last moment. Also ARMs are useless against SAMs that can use electro-optical targeting, a good example is the Croatale.
 

kovona

New Member
I like to thank everyone for their posts to my topic, really given me a better understanding of modern air defence. Now theres one more question i need to ask, ignoring the decoy system, what is the best short term option for the PLA in facing today's fourth and fifth generation military aircraft? Should they develop better interceptors, depend on SAMs, or develop a joint defense system between the two?

On the side, what are the PRC's manufacturing capabilities for the next generation? Does China have any standoff long range AAM similar to the F-14's Phiionex?
 

crobato

Colonel
VIP Professional
Since the past, China's air defense system is a joint effort of point defense interceptors (J-6 and J-7), high flying supersonic interceptors (J-8), with layers of SAM defenses (mainly updated HQ-2). By the nineties, its long in the tooth, hence the interest to acquire MiG-31 and S-300. The inadequete performance of the early J-8s and J-8IIs were also a problem.

Today, you still have the same basic structure but on different levels.

Tactical SAMs like HQ-7 and Tor M1s are in the direct command of the PLA Army.

Longer ranged SAMs like HQ-9, HQ-2 and S-300, are in the direct command of the PLAAF.

J-6s have been retired, but earlier J-7s still serve as point defense interceptors. However, I foresee that role being phased out completely as the last J-7 is retired.

J-7E/G, Updated J-8IIs, Flankers of all types, and now J-10s provide the main backbone of the PRC's air to air defense, now recently augmented with various AWACs and AEW aircraft.

China does not have a long range standoff AAMs. Their BVR capabilities comprise of the PL-11 (Sparrow equivalent), PL-12 (R-77 equivalent), R-77, and different versions of R-27s including the R-27ER/ET. The extended range R-27s are the longest ranged AAMs in PLAAF inventory so far.

The PLAN now adds a new wall to the air defenses, starting with ships with long range fleet area defense like the 052C and 051C DDG classes.
 

Finn McCool

Captain
Registered Member
I like to thank everyone for their posts to my topic, really given me a better understanding of modern air defence. Now theres one more question i need to ask, ignoring the decoy system, what is the best short term option for the PLA in facing today's fourth and fifth generation military aircraft? Should they develop better interceptors, depend on SAMs, or develop a joint defense system between the two?

On the side, what are the PRC's manufacturing capabilities for the next generation? Does China have any standoff long range AAM similar to the F-14's Phiionex?

As for the first question, I would say China's air defence strategy should depend on their air offence strategy. If China wants to have global military reach it should really invest more in fighter aircraft. If it is only concerned with protecting its territory and very vital interests, it should invest in a nationwide-defence capable network. However, I personally believe in the USAF doctrine rather than the Soviet doctrine of air defence-the best way to win is to challenge the enemy in the air and take the fight to him so I support a strong fighter force with AWACS support.

And by the way, the F-14 is not in service any more, so neither is the Phoneix.
 

planeman

Senior Member
VIP Professional
I wouldn't just include US designed SAMs though: South Korea, Japan and Taiwan all deploy high-end SAM systems that pose a very real threat to PLAAF/PLANAF aircraft should there ever be conflict.

eg...

South Korean K-SAM Pegasus:
ksam-pegasus-11.jpg

Similar to Crotale-NG but different missile(?)

Japanese Chu-SAM:
chusamtype03samok0.jpg
 
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