Could mass layoffs in China result in a violent crackdown on unrest by the CCP?

Mr T said:

...What would you define as mass unrest? It isn't necessarily the same as what other people think.

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Something on the scale of Tiananmen for example, with nationwide effects etc.

Mr T said:

Show me a collection of news reports where reporters have commissioned research (other than simple polling) for themselves. For the media to be affordable it's impossible to do that all the time.

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Yeah good ones are few & far in between. I don't collect them, will remember to show you some when I see them in future. That's why I say most of what we see are of low quality.

Mr T said:

...You're contradicting yourself. First you admit it might be expensive then you imply it's easy. Pick one or the other.

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Where did I imply it's easy ?

Mr T said:

...Yeah, like non "Western" media don't do the same. Chinese media are guilty of doing that too.

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Sure, as business considerations go into Chinese media business, questionable tactics of the western media also starts to creep into them. This thread started with a western media source, that's why I went there. Feel free to start a topic on questionable Chinese media reports if u like.

Mr T said:

...Again, I'll remind you that supposedly this comes from the Chinese government. Either come down and say it has been made up by the media, or accept that it has not been artificially created/set by them.

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Not really, Chinese government make projections etc & comments on importance of jobs creation etc. I've not seen them making sensational predictions like mass unrest/fall of government etc as in the western media.

Mr T said:

...If you're talking about "decades", then people were proved right by the 1980s.

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U need to elaborate.

Mr T said:

...Dear oh dear, you don't understand do you?
There is a difference between saying there WILL be mass unrest and there MIGHT be mass unrest. I don't see the majority of newspapers saying the former. You would agree, surely, that clouds indicate that rain might come, yes?

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Smart move, a climb down to just MIGHT.
That's what I've been saying, ie a 6 year old kid can also say might this or that. If u don't have any substance to back it up, just saying it MIGHT simply because u wish it so, it's exactly what it is, ie no different than a kid saying something just for fun.

Schumacher said:

Where did I imply it's easy ?

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Stick to reporting quotes only if too lazy or daft to do some research.

That implies it could be done with some effort. If you don't have the money then effort doesn't come into it.

Sure, as business considerations go into Chinese media business, questionable tactics of the western media also starts to creep into them.

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Trying to blame bad reporting on foreigners is ridiculous. The Chinese media only writes such stuff because people will buy it and Chinese journalists can think it up. There were lies and exaggeration in China before foreign media ideas arrived.

I've not seen them making sensational predictions like mass unrest/fall of government etc as in the western media.

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Has the foreign media widely been saying that the Chinese government will fall? Not that I can see. And of course the Chinese government will never say openly that if it doesn't get x% there will be mass unrest, but you do get statements expressing concern of the potential for it. Then there are off-the-record comments as well.

U need to elaborate.

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1980s - a lot of brown stuff hit the fan in China. Predictions that there would be mass unrest (if there were such predictions decades ago) came true.

Smart move, a climb down to just MIGHT.

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Except that I never said anything WOULD happen. Nor do I think the foreign media was all saying there WOULD be mass unrest, though you can correct me on that if you like.

Mr T said:

Stick to reporting quotes only if too lazy or daft to do some research.

That implies it could be done with some effort. If you don't have the money then effort doesn't come into it.

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So lack of money is the reason for the bad reports ? That fine with me. I'm just calling it for what it is, ie bad reports. Feel free to find reasons/excuses for why they're bad if u like.

Mr T said:

Trying to blame bad reporting on foreigners is ridiculous. ....

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Not blaming them for anything, just saying many of the reports are lacking in substance

Mr T said:

Has the foreign media widely been saying that the Chinese government will fall? Not that I can see. And of course the Chinese government will never say openly that if it doesn't get x% there will be mass unrest, but you do get statements expressing concern of the potential for it. Then there are off-the-record comments as well.

1980s - a lot of brown stuff hit the fan in China. Predictions that there would be mass unrest (if there were such predictions decades ago) came true.

Except that I never said anything WOULD happen. Nor do I think the foreign media was all saying there WOULD be mass unrest, though you can correct me on that if you like.

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I've seen many that do say sensational stuffs like fall of government etc.
What brown stuffs ? I was referring to predictions of banking crisis, bad debts etc since decades ago.
Good that u clarify u never said anything WOULD because u really haven't presented any substance to back up such a claim anyway.

Too much HEAT in this thread. Way too much. Calm down gents or I will permantly close this thread.

bd popeye super moderator

Schumacher said:

So lack of money is the reason for the bad reports ? That fine with me. I'm just calling it for what it is, ie bad reports. Feel free to find reasons/excuses for why they're bad if u like.

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I don't think that a media report is bad because the owner doesn't have a research institute churning out data for it. If the media is to be accessible it must be affordable - otherwise there is no point to it.

Mr T said:

Oh, yes, we're just screaming for one-party rule and being locked into mental asylums whenever we have a grievance.

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That is a case of local officals attemptting to bypass checks and balances, not CCP's policy.

Mr T said:

Hahaha, that's a good one. Then why were Hu Yaobang and Zhao Ziyang purged? Unless of course you admit they were unfairly persecuted, which would say something about China's ruling party in putting its own good above that of the country.

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They are incompetant for putting the stability of the country at risk.

Mr T said:

Except that the "protests" frequently get violent. I'd say that the riots are a sign of social unrest, even if you want to argue over how severe it is.

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I would say otherwise unless you provide concrete data on the amount of protests occuring in China each year, and how many of them are violent.

Mr T said:

In China protests are often treated as crimes by the authorities.

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Wrong. In China protests are often not treated as crimes by the authorities.

Mr T said:

I don't think that a media report is bad because the owner doesn't have a research institute churning out data for it. If the media is to be accessible it must be affordable - otherwise there is no point to it.

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In other words, you are saying that it is right for media to conjure data and represent fictions as facts.

Despite all the heat and spin being generated, its worth remembering where the economic crisis has actually added the those extra few degrees to simmering tensions and caused riots to break out. - Greece!

What is most fascinating here is not the repeat of the "China in peril" predictions being played out in the West again, but the fact that it has broken out in the Motherplace of Democracy and threatens to spread to its children!

Somewhat symbolic methinks!


Mr T says

I don't think that a media report is bad because the owner doesn't have a research institute churning out data for it. If the media is to be accessible it must be affordable - otherwise there is no point to it.

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The thought of Murdoch and CNN being impoverished small town papers is utterly ridiculous, they certianly have to funds to ensure that a very high level of consideration and integrity is given to their reports and without increasing costs in any significant way.

In the old days such an approach was almost commonplace and it was called Investigative Journalism; where people actually went out to find and research stories rather than just turn up for PR handouts. Still, your probably to young to remember that

Engineer said:

That is a case of local officals attemptting to bypass checks and balances, not CCP's policy.

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But it happened - the central government is responsible for failing to provide citizens with the rights that would protect them against it. It has also failed/refused to impliment rule of law such that would stop the authorities from being able to do it.

Please show me the last time something like this happened in the UK.

They are incompetant for putting the stability of the country at risk.

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What, by refusing to declare martial law and not sendiing in the army to shoot civilians? I would say the crackdown did more to jepordise China's stability than anything else - the old men were essentially playing russian roulette.

Wrong. In China protests are often not treated as crimes by the authorities.

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Then why was a group of protesters arrested outside the foreign ministry recently?

In other words, you are saying that it is right for media to conjure data and represent fictions as facts.

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Can you prove they are doing that? There is a difference between making a figure up and reporting something that comes from an official source.

you cant measure a leader's competence by popularity. a lot of ppl hates Zhu Rongji too lol. very naive way to measure a leader's merits. Li Peng was more competent than Hu Yaobang. Zhao Ziyang was more competent than Hu Yaobang too, though i would still argue Hu Yaobang is more competent than most of his western counterparts considering the contribution he has made to the great reform.