Coronavirus 2019-2020 thread (no unsubstantiated rumours!)

AssassinsMace

Lieutenant General
If you want to save on toilet paper, get a smart toilet or smart toilet seat if you can't buy the whole thing. If you don't have the drying feature, toilet paper is basically just to dry yourself. Some people use a towel.
 

KYli

Brigadier
People feels like they can buy the freedom from the illness by spending money for toilet paper, foodstuff and so on.

But it is just one step on the ladder of grief .
It is the bargaining, the feeling like with money you can buy your life.


Best part of the population have to develop immunity.
And it is possible only if best part of the population catch it.

There is no other way.

At what cost, for the worst case scenario it is likely a few millions people would died in the US alone.
 

localizer

Colonel
Registered Member
I have stocked up with masks intended for flu and allergy but not going to wear them since a few unfriendly encounters in the early days. I have been avoiding crowds for the last few weeks. I always keep at least three to six months of toilet paper, cleaning products, and tissue paper so never needed to stock up for them except some frozen foods. It is pretty scary out here since yesterday for Costco and BJ's wholesales.


Just a tip, if you guys need groceries and also want to wear a mask, try Chinese grocery stores. They're also more likely to have things in stock.
 

Janiz

Senior Member
And for some substantial data - the newst data coming from Italy. You can use whatever to translate this but it's really valuable (especially in the regions where you can still take lessons from China and Italy) - it can save lives:
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KYli

Brigadier
Just a tip, if you guys need groceries and also want to wear a mask, try Chinese grocery stores. They're also more likely to have things in stock.

One of the Chinese grocery stores here is actually handing out free masks. Didn't take one as I already have better quality face mask at home. I will wear one next time since cases just skyrocketing here.
 

OppositeDay

Senior Member
Registered Member
You forgot there's also more mild cases than serious cases!

For example, out of 80 mild cases to 20 serious cases, 8 mild cases may recover against 2 serious cases recovering, but the ratio of remaining mild cases to serious cases still remains the same. A better measure may be (existing + existed mild case)/(existing + existed serious cases). This solves the problem of variability of existing cases (more mild cases cured than normal becoming existed mild cases, or doctors deciding to keep patients with borderline mild/serious symptoms in hospitals for a longer period of time just to be on the safe side, becoming effectively serious cases.)




I have to keep repeating myself. There won't be a concentration of serious cases. Let me try once again.

Let's say 1000 patients got admitted to hospitals in China in the past 20 days, would 200 (20% of 1000) of these patients become classified as serious cases on the same one day sometime in the future. No, of course.

The 200 serious cases would be evenly spread out in a 20 days time period sometime in the future. This gets repeated in a continuum every day, and therefore the serious cases would be spread out reasonably evenly through time among and between the shorter period milder cases (which is four times more numerous).

If you still don't understand what I've explained then I think there's no point in the discussion.



Really? Without trying to understand what I have put forth?

Instead of just ranting off, why don't you key in the data and see for yourself the actual fact?

As you can see for yourself, the daily death / daily recovery ratio (for the whole of China) is actually going down quite markedly in the previous 10 days.


daily deathdaily recoveryratio
31​
2189​
0.014162​
30​
1681​
0.017847​
28​
1678​
0.016687​
27​
1661​
0.016255​
22​
1535​
0.014332​
17​
1297​
0.013107​
22​
1578​
0.013942​
11​
1318​
0.008346​
7​
1318​
0.005311​


You forgot there's also more mild cases than serious cases!

For example, out of 80 mild cases to 20 serious cases, 8 mild cases may recover against 2 serious cases recovering, but the ratio of remaining mild cases to serious cases still remains the same. A better measure may be (existing + existed mild case)/(existing + existed serious cases). This solves the problem of variability of existing cases (more mild cases cured than normal becoming existed mild cases, or doctors deciding to keep patients with borderline mild/serious symptoms in hospitals for a longer period of time just to be on the safe side, becoming effectively serious cases.)

Of course there are more mild cases than serious cases. But that doesn't matter. The difference between the average onset to recovery times for mild and serious cases means that, caeteris paribus, the proportion of current serious cases will raise when there are fewer and fewer new cases. This is exactly the reason why, for example, because women on average live longer than men, in a society where the number of newborns keep decreasing, caeteris paribus, the proportion of women in the overall population will increase. And if the number of newborns gradually reaches zero, we can expect that, caeteris paribus, one year before humanity finally goes extinct, the last surviving group of humans will have a lot more women than men.

I don't know why you're even bringing up '(existing + existed mild case)/(existing + existed serious cases)'. As I have repeated many times, I'm interested in the current trend, not in the culminated numbers. So whatever you think it's a better measure of, it's not something I'm interested in measuring.

I have to keep repeating myself. There won't be a concentration of serious cases. Let me try once again.

Let's say 1000 patients got admitted to hospitals in China in the past 20 days, would 200 (20% of 1000) of these patients become classified as serious cases on the same one day sometime in the future. No, of course.

The 200 serious cases would be evenly spread out in a 20 days time period sometime in the future. This gets repeated in a continuum every day, and therefore the serious cases would be spread out reasonably evenly through time among and between the shorter period milder cases (which is four times more numerous).

If you still don't understand what I've explained then I think there's no point in the discussion.

I have said right from the beginning that my model is a simplified model and the effect in the real world will be less pronounced but nevertheless still there. Is the basic idea of a model so hard to understand? What's important for the time lag effect is that mild cases patients being discharged today were, on average, infected later than the serious cases patients being discharged, and that the number of daily new infections has been dropping. According to the WHO-China Joint Mission data, we can expect mild case patients discharged today to have onset dates around two weeks ago, and serious cases patients discharged today to have onset dates sometime between 3 to 6 weeks ago. It's not going to be exact dates as in my simplified model, so the effect won't be as pronounced as in my model, but the effect will be there. Assuming the daily numbers of new infections have been decreasing, caeteris paribus, the case resolved today contains a disportationaly large number of serious cases and one can expect the daily death-discharge ratio today to be disproportionately determined by fatality rate of the serious cases compared to the fatality rate of mild cases. So it will be an overestimation of [the fatality rate given the increased medical resources since mid-February].

3. You cannot just 'key in the data and see for yourself the actual fact'. The time lag effect will result in daily death-discharge ratios what are overestimation of the trending fatality rate. But one cannot just look at the data and 'see for oneself' whether the effect are there, since there are other factors influencing the daily death-discharge ratio. I myself have perhaps overstated the impact of the time lag effect would have on the actual numbers, but there are reasons to expect the effect will be more pronounced in the coming days. We've seen a drastic reduction on the number of new cases in the first week of March, that reduction is about to be reflected in the time lag effect in about one to one and half week's time. Note that number of new cases between Feb 20 and Feb 29 were in roughly the same range, so the time lag effect at this moment is not expected to be very pronounced anyway. Just be patient and wait.

Of course, as we cannot easily isolate the time lag effect, the actual data could only ever be suggestive, even if it goes as I've predicted. But really I think the effect is rather obvious a priori. I have tried my best to explain this effect to you, but if you don't get it, I won't keep trying.
 

Hendrik_2000

Lieutenant General
Chinese Businessman Jack Ma to Donate 500,000 Coronavirus Test Kits, Other Medical Supplies to U.S.
Zachary Evans
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March 13, 2020, 1:54 PM CDT


Businessman Jack Ma, Asia’s richest man, announced on Thursday he would donate 500,000 test kits for the Wuhan coronavirus and 1 million masks to the U.S. to help fight the outbreak.
“Drawing from my own country’s experience, speedy and accurate testing and adequate personal protective equipment for medical professionals are most effective in preventing the spread of the virus. We hope that our donation can help Americans fight against the pandemic!” Ma
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in a statement.

Ma is the co-founder of e-commerce giant Alibaba. He has also made donations through the Alibaba Foundation and Jack Ma Foundation to other countries hit by the outbreak, including Italy, Iran, Korea, Japan and Spain.
Ma was revealed in 2018 to be a member of the Chinese Communist Party. The businessman has defended Premier Xi Jinping’s attitude toward foreign firms who want to gain a foothold in China. In an interview with the BBC that same year, Ma
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of international companies, “if they come here they have to say OK, I follow the Chinese rules and laws.”

“The crisis presents a huge challenge to all humankind in a globalized world. The pandemic we face today can no longer be resolved by any individual country,” Ma said. “Rather, we need to combat the virus by working hand-in-hand. At this moment, we can’t beat this virus unless we eliminate boundaries to resources and share our know-how and hard-earned lessons.”

The U.S. is facing a shortage of coronavirus diagnostic tests, and lawmakers on both sides of the aisle have expressed frustration with federal agencies for not preparing enough tests.
“We have a serious deficiency in being prepared for testing,” Senator Lamar Alexander (R., Tenn.)
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on Thursday. “We not only need a better system for later. We need a better system for now, and we’re going to focus on that as rapidly as we can.”
 

AndrewS

Brigadier
Registered Member
I don't think it's correct. Heard that some clinics are offering tests for less than two hundred bucks.

Yes, but it's indicative of the byzantine complexity and confusion of the system.

There are articles which mention some US hospitals charging $1000.

And then we have the Korean company which is charging $20 per test. I would expect Chinese companies to be at a similar cost.
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Anlsvrthng

Captain
Registered Member
Yes, but it's indicative of the byzantine complexity and confusion of the system.

There are articles which mention some US hospitals charging $1000.

And then we have the Korean company which is charging $20 per test. I would expect Chinese companies to be at a similar cost.
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It is safe to say it will mark the end of the current USA health care system.

The current, private based is too profitable to get dismantled without a crisis.

Now, there is a disaster.
 

Janiz

Senior Member
Yes, but it's indicative of the byzantine complexity and confusion of the system.

There are articles which mention some US hospitals charging $1000.

And then we have the Korean company which is charging $20 per test. I would expect Chinese companies to be at a similar cost.
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It's the same molecular test that everyone is using all around the world right now. There's nothing special. They just automated their lines of production. You can do that by hand in 15 minutes... And it only helps in propagation phase and combined with a case when it's more or less stationary, later on the speed limit is put on public healthcare systems as it's the biggest limiting factor after a few houndreds of cases.
 
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