Coronavirus 2019-2020 thread (no unsubstantiated rumours!)

[Deleted member 23272]

At this point these debates are not going anywhere, this is just my take on the situation and I hope it puts us on a path to settling this.

1. Zero Covid is done now and the government would not bring it back, unless it wanted mass unrest and I mean mass unrest.
2. With with how contagious Omicron is, zero Covid was only going to be maintained at the great expense of the population. It saw terminally ill people being denied medical care, doors of apartment buildings being welded shut, pets being liquidated, extreme fatigue amongst frontline workers leading to accidents and deaths. And above all, it strained the lives of a population that is still very much middle income and do not enjoy the luxury of the generous social safety nets afforded to citizens of developed nations.
4. The government would have needed to justify these measures to its citizens and thus one can say they had no shortage of good arguments when the Delta strain of the virus was dominant. Already then, China's zero Covid policy was getting global condmenation, but it protected the population from a strain of the virus that created the notorious scenes in India of people having to cremate corpses in parking lots.
5. By the time Omicron rolled around, the government had a harder time justifying its draconian measures. Everywhere in the world right now Omicron symptoms have proven mild to non-existent as long as you are vaccinated and rarely has the disease caused the collapse of any country's medical system.
6. With opening up, will there be deaths? Yes there will be, just as the flu and common cold kills people. Get one thing straight however, ever since the beginning of the pandemic the biggest danger has not been the virus itself. COVID is not the Black Death or Ebola. The biggest danger was the rate of spread and thus the overwhelming of the hospital system.
7. As long as China ramps up vaccinations, the country will be just fine. Dozens of countries in the world have used the Chinese vaccine to great success, so I don't know why so many here are buying the Western propaganda that the vaccines don't work or more absurdly that China has a low vaccination rate when a simple visit to FT's vaccine tracker would disepl that narrative.
8. Frankly, if some people still choose not to get vaccinated and put themselves in danger of death. That's their problem and a burden the rest of the vaccinated population should not have to shoulder.
9. I know a lot of people here regularly have online flame wars with Indian and American ultranationalists about the superiority of the Chinese system, and this u-turn from the government is a big embarassment. Screw those folks, let the Chinese government take the L here. They screwed up, but they owned up to it, and now its time to bring China back to a sense of normalcy.

 

[KYli]

At this point these debates are not going anywhere, this is just my take on the situation and I hope it puts us on a path to settling this.

1. Zero Covid is done now and the government would not bring it back, unless it wanted mass unrest and I mean mass unrest.
2. With with how contagious Omicron is, zero Covid was only going to be maintained at the great expense of the population. It saw terminally ill people being denied medical care, doors of apartment buildings being welded shut, pets being liquidated, extreme fatigue amongst frontline workers leading to accidents and deaths. And above all, it strained the lives of a population that is still very much middle income and do not enjoy the luxury of the generous social safety nets afforded to citizens of developed nations.
4. The government would have needed to justify these measures to its citizens and thus one can say they had no shortage of good arguments when the Delta strain of the virus was dominant. Already then, China's zero Covid policy was getting global condmenation, but it protected the population from a strain of the virus that created the notorious scenes in India of people having to cremate corpses in parking lots.
5. By the time Omicron rolled around, the government had a harder time justifying its draconian measures. Everywhere in the world right now Omicron symptoms have proven mild to non-existent as long as you are vaccinated and rarely has the disease caused the collapse of any country's medical system.
6. With opening up, will there be deaths? Yes there will be, just as the flu and common cold kills people. Get one thing straight however, ever since the beginning of the pandemic the biggest danger has not been the virus itself. COVID is not the Black Death or Ebola. The biggest danger was the rate of spread and thus the overwhelming of the hospital system.
7. As long as China ramps up vaccinations, the country will be just fine. Dozens of countries in the world have used the Chinese vaccine to great success, so I don't know why so many here are buying the Western propaganda that the vaccines don't work or more absurdly that China has a low vaccination rate when a simple visit to FT's vaccine tracker would disepl that narrative.
8. Frankly, if some people still choose not to get vaccinated and put themselves in danger of death. That's their problem and a burden the rest of the vaccinated population should not have to shoulder.
9. I know a lot of people here regularly have online flame wars with Indian and American ultranationalists about the superiority of the Chinese system, and this u-turn from the government is a big embarassment. Screw those folks, let the Chinese government take the L here. They screwed up, but they owned up to it, and now its time to bring China back to a sense of normalcy.

I don't even want to waste my time to refute your points. Most of things you mentioned here I don't agree with. It looks like you want to start a flame war than you want to smooth things over.

The only point I would make is why would anyone feel embarrassed by the Chinese government ending zero covid. It is something that is expected just not sure when. Why should anyone care about what Indians and Americans think? It is like you want to put your emotion of shame and your claim of the Chinese government screwed up upon us.

Personally, I don't think saving millions of lives is anything that should be embarrassed. US has over 1 millions deaths and India has over 5 millions deaths due to covid. They should be embarrassed. Their governments screwed up. Why should Chinese feel embarrassed? It is an absurd way of thinking and logic.

 

[Han Patriot]

At this point these debates are not going anywhere, this is just my take on the situation and I hope it puts us on a path to settling this.

1. Zero Covid is done now and the government would not bring it back, unless it wanted mass unrest and I mean mass unrest.
2. With with how contagious Omicron is, zero Covid was only going to be maintained at the great expense of the population. It saw terminally ill people being denied medical care, doors of apartment buildings being welded shut, pets being liquidated, extreme fatigue amongst frontline workers leading to accidents and deaths. And above all, it strained the lives of a population that is still very much middle income and do not enjoy the luxury of the generous social safety nets afforded to citizens of developed nations.
4. The government would have needed to justify these measures to its citizens and thus one can say they had no shortage of good arguments when the Delta strain of the virus was dominant. Already then, China's zero Covid policy was getting global condmenation, but it protected the population from a strain of the virus that created the notorious scenes in India of people having to cremate corpses in parking lots.
5. By the time Omicron rolled around, the government had a harder time justifying its draconian measures. Everywhere in the world right now Omicron symptoms have proven mild to non-existent as long as you are vaccinated and rarely has the disease caused the collapse of any country's medical system.
6. With opening up, will there be deaths? Yes there will be, just as the flu and common cold kills people. Get one thing straight however, ever since the beginning of the pandemic the biggest danger has not been the virus itself. COVID is not the Black Death or Ebola. The biggest danger was the rate of spread and thus the overwhelming of the hospital system.
7. As long as China ramps up vaccinations, the country will be just fine. Dozens of countries in the world have used the Chinese vaccine to great success, so I don't know why so many here are buying the Western propaganda that the vaccines don't work or more absurdly that China has a low vaccination rate when a simple visit to FT's vaccine tracker would disepl that narrative.
8. Frankly, if some people still choose not to get vaccinated and put themselves in danger of death. That's their problem and a burden the rest of the vaccinated population should not have to shoulder.
9. I know a lot of people here regularly have online flame wars with Indian and American ultranationalists about the superiority of the Chinese system, and this u-turn from the government is a big embarassment. Screw those folks, let the Chinese government take the L here. They screwed up, but they owned up to it, and now its time to bring China back to a sense of normalcy.

I am not a zero covid supporter but you do know less than 1% if the Chinese population was under any lockdowns at any one time right? Btw, we don't weld their doors shut, there one or two instances and it was blown up by the wmsm. If they were weld shut, they can't do pcr tests, it's better to use chainlock. Lol.

I am very sure you were not in the China for the past 3 years. I was here, zweo covid worked so well, alpha was bought under control in 2 months, we had 2 years of bliss, then omicron came, and the West reopened ans expected everyone to follow immediately. China is not abandoning restrictions, people still need to be back home if they are infected. There is no sudden Zero zero covid.

 

[FairAndUnbiased]

if deaths get too high, the names and addresses of everyone who participated in the riots should be published.

 

[TK3600]

New sleepy arrived?

 

[Deleted member 23272]

I don't even want to waste my time to refute your points. Most of things you mentioned here I don't agree with. It looks like you want to start a flame war than you want to smooth things over.

Well that's a shame because I'm willing to admit I was a bit hyperbolic in some cases and that my last point was totally unwarranted, so apologies for what its worth. Everything else though, I stand by and if you don't want to provide at least a general refutation rather than point by point, fine by me.

 

[broadsword]

New sleepy arrived?

No. A bit woke.

 

[Petrolicious88]

What is your point? I don't know what you are trying to say here. You want to worship someone, it is your problem not mine. We are here to debate not talking or worshiping some hotshot. Can you stop being a fanboy and stick to the point? I don't care if Zhang has 500 million views. 500 million views wouldn't suddenly make covid goes away.

All countries or city that opened up from Japan, South Korea, Taiwan to Hong Kong, their health care system can't cope with the first wave. Zhang or other Chinese experts can say whatever they want. It is not going to change the fact that Chinese hospitals would get overwhelmed.

Fine. Just don't pretend you care.

It is CPC's plan to reopen in April and May 2023. At least it is what CPC told foreign investors and media. Fact is Omicron crippled Japan health care system.

Of course, there is no urgency, China didn't have Alpha and Delta waves to begin with. Most elderly felt safe and didn't want to vaccinate. Hong Kong was not able to get many elderly to vaccinate until the first big wave and many deaths, those elderly finally got vaccinated. Without fear and urgency, the uptick of vaccination for elderly would be slow unless mandatory.


Oh please, you want to reopen, you blame Xi for not reopening soon enough, you blame Xi for the deaths, you blame CPC for not vaccinating elderly before reopening but asking to reopen immediately. It is pretty clear to me that you are the type of people that wouldn't hesitate to blame CPC and Xi if the reopening resulted in too many deaths.

I have more respect for people who advocating for reopening but still acknowledging the fact that such reopening would result in many deaths.

Yes, they should have vaccinated the elderly much sooner. People were scared during the height of the pandemic. Headline news around the globe, locked down entire cities and you are telling me there was no fear or urgency. The point of lockdowns is to buy time so you can vaccinate the vulnerable. You get that?

Yes, they should have opened sooner instead of this winter. Facts about Omicron have been verified for over a year. A lot of the riots and protests could have been avoided. You think lockdown fatigue is about people not being able to go out to movies or bars, lol really. Don’t pretend you care, please.

I haven’t blamed Xi for any death because China is just reopening. Most people are not dying from omicron. What happens next depends on how things are managed. Stop putting words in other peoples mouth. “It’s disrespectful”.

But Yes Xi should take the blame if things go south. Don’t blame the Chinese people or anybody else. Xi is in charge, the buck stops with him. Who else should take responsibility? Stop being a fanboy.

 

[KYli]

Yes, they should have vaccinated the elderly much sooner. People were scared during the height of the pandemic. Headline news around the globe, locked down entire cities and you are telling me there was no fear or urgency. The point of lockdowns is to buy time so you can vaccinate the vulnerable. You get that?

Do you live in a different world? Vaccines didn't come out until December 2020 and early Jan 2021. China didn't have much of an outbreak from late 2020 to late 2021. Why shouldn't these elderly feel relatively safe?

The point of lockdowns were to prevent original covid to Alpha and Delta that would have killed millions of Chinese which the Chinese government has successfully prevented. China has been very successful in preventing covid that most of its citizens live a normal lives from fall, 2020 to Winter, 2021.

China didn't even have much of lockdowns until early 2022. And China did get over 90% of its over 60 vaccinated. It is much better than many countries. It is just that over 80 with diseases would be tricky to vaccinate due to the unique circumstance of China. The only ways to get them vaccinated are either mandatory or fear.

Yes, they should have opened sooner instead of this winter. Facts about Omicron have been verified for over a year. A lot of the riots and protests could have been avoided. You think lockdown fatigue is about people not being able to go out to movies or bars, lol really. Don’t pretend you care, please.

If China listened to those so called experts and prematurely reopen during the Delta wave, what would happen? China has successfully dodged Delta due to it didn't listen to some experts that want to reopen in 2021. Being cautious is a good thing as any reopening would not reversible.

How so? Omicron came out in very late 2021 and major outbreak of Omicron occurred in Jan to Mar of 2022. Most countries including the US and EU and many other countries have a meltdown in their health care system during the Omicron outbreak. Even Japan and most of other nations only reopen after Summer and Fall 2022.

The only way to deal with Omicron is to prevent people from going to hospitals. That means most people would be asked to stay home for self treatment. That is what Japan and Taiwan did. Otherwise, their health care system would have collapsed.

I don't care about those college kids that want to reopen so that they can have fun. They are a bunch of losers. I don't care those wealthy elites who want to reopen so they can travel and have fun. They are selfish retards. I do care about regular people that need to make a living. That's why I do support a reopening no later than Summer 2023. The problem I see is after Shanghai disaster the government could keep Omicron from spreading. Since they can't implement more restricted policies then all China would be vulnerable to the outbreak. Economic hardship has become problematic due to many outbreak during and after fall 2022. It is no longer sustainable and viable for having zero covid for a long term anymore.

I haven’t blamed Xi for any death because China is just reopening. Most people are not dying from omicron. What happens next depends on how things are managed. Stop putting words in other peoples mouth. “It’s disrespectful”.

Really, you said you haven't but didn't say you wouldn't. So I am not putting words in your mouth.

But Yes Xi should take the blame if things go south. Don’t blame the Chinese people or anybody else. Xi is in charge, the buck stops with him. Who else should take responsibility? Stop being a fanboy.

That's why I have problem with people like you. You asked for reopening but refused to accept the consequences of such action. You would blame others for not giving in on your demand and when they did you blame them if things go south.

Xi and CPC would ultimately hold accountable if millions of Chinese died due to the reopening. Protests might have forced their hands but it didn't excuse them for big failures. However, I can blame Xi because I don't support the speed of reopening. On the other hand, you don't have any moral right to do so because you asked for reopening immediately.

 

[Jj888]

But Yes Xi should take the blame if things go south. Don’t blame the Chinese people or anybody else. Xi is in charge, the buck stops with him. Who else should take responsibility? Stop being a fanboy.

The usa have the highest covid deaths.

in your opinion who is responsible?