Coronavirus 2019-2020 thread (no unsubstantiated rumours!)

FairAndUnbiased

Brigadier
Registered Member
Although the best outcome is obviously hoped for by all, relaxing dynamic zero-COVID at this time is a mistake and it’s disheartening to see the central government seemingly concede to societal and economic pressures on this front, pressures which, arguably, were nowhere near critical mass. Just last month, it had been reiterated that "决不能造成放松疫情防控,甚至放开、“躺平”的误读” and this recent shift seems to fly in the face of that position. Loosening COVID controls has always been one of those instant gratification policy moves that everyone approves of - until half a year later, when the virus has stormed through the vulnerable age brackets, hobbled the medical system infrastructure and swathes of the population are silently stuck with varying degrees of Long COVID. That’s always been the difficulty with selling the idea of COVID restrictions to societies across the world: the concept of sacrificing the short-term for the long-term.

The tone of benign neglect under which the central government is apparently permitting this relaxation to take place at the moment, where sub-level jurisdictions are seemingly setting their own laissez-faire policies contradictory to November's “进一步优化防控工作的二十条措施" is bound to be disastrous unless inter-provincial border restrictions are unlikely installed. As the lesson of COVID at the global scale should have plainly shown, the incompetence of the lowest common denominator will ruin the collective efforts of everyone else. This concern is especially pronounced when they’ve decided to enact this in the middle of winter and before the Spring Festival, the world’s largest annual mass-travel event.

Although the escalation of this policy change in the aftermath of those “protests” make it difficult to not see them as somewhat correlatively reactive, "按闹分配” as one would say, the idea that Chinese people are somehow gullible or naive enough to blame the protestors for the ensuing consequences of relaxation rather than the government is obviously dismissible. Foreign media is already releasing propaganda along the new narrative angle of “China rightfully caved in to the insuppressible voice of the people but now the incompetent government is botching the re-opening process."

I will say that, going through the domestic forums, this relaxation is unsurprisingly being taken as a slap in the face, especially by COVID vulnerable groups who understandably feel like they're now being left out in the dust. Domestic compatriots, the quiet majority, made massive personal sacrifices over the past three years of pandemic restrictions, doing their duty for the common good in silence, all the while as the malcontents who thought they were unique in their hardships screamed about zero-COVID oppression endlessly to foreign media. People defended the government policy and upheld the scientific approach only to have domestic media like Xinhua and Global Times now about-face and downplaying Omicron’s pathogenicity for seemingly PR purposes, government officials in Guangzhou apparently spreading Western fake news talking points like “COVID = Flu” and having to suffer the gloating Zhihu liberals now trolling that anyone not supporting reopening is "against the government line" and an "unpatriotic reactionary." This whiplash in policy communication is causing unnecessary civic nihilism in a society already subjected to relentless “lie flat” apathy narrative pressures.

The frustration in sentiments like these cropping up is frankly understandable:


That said, this was an inevitability if epidemiological conditions failed to improve and I suppose this relaxation of policy indicates that the government no longer believes the material conditions of COVID-19, whether the theory of virulence degradation or innovations in medical intervention, are set to improve in the short to possibly medium term, as there’s no reason why they wouldn't have continued to hold out if so. Since permitting the risk of endemic COVID emergence in the world's last COVID-free stronghold is a genie that can't be put back in the bottle, the logistics of enacting this before the Spring Festival and the absence of a concerted push for synchronized approaches amongst the sub-level jurisdictions by central government coordination are hopefully works in progress.
this is surrender to the mob.
 

tankphobia

Senior Member
Registered Member
Looking at hard numbers here, if the US managed 2000+ deaths/intensive care a day at the current high vaccination rate, we must expect the same for China once they choose to let covid restrictions fully drop, with the same ratio of population multiplication. Infact I would expect the initial huge wave to cause a large amount of excessive deaths, simply because no amount of health infrastructure hardening is going to stop tens- hundreds of millions of cases.

There are no good choices here. But at least majority of Chinese population is healthy with low rates of obesity.
 

zhangjim

Junior Member
Registered Member
I will say that, going through the domestic forums, this relaxation is unsurprisingly being taken as a slap in the face, especially by COVID vulnerable groups who understandably feel like they're now being left out in the dust. Domestic compatriots, the quiet majority, made massive personal sacrifices over the past three years of pandemic restrictions, doing their duty for the common good in silence, all the while as the malcontents who thought they were unique in their hardships screamed about zero-COVID oppression endlessly to foreign media. People defended the government policy and upheld the scientific approach only to have domestic media like Xinhua and Global Times now about-face and downplaying Omicron’s pathogenicity for seemingly PR purposes, government officials in Guangzhou apparently spreading Western fake news talking points like “COVID = Flu” and having to suffer the gloating Zhihu liberals now trolling that anyone not supporting reopening is "against the government line" and an "unpatriotic reactionary." This whiplash in policy communication is causing unnecessary civic nihilism in a society already subjected to relentless “lie flat” apathy narrative pressures.
We can only observe what will happen in the next few months.
It is true that many people have maliciously accused China of wasting three years on a meaningless matter, but others believe that those who blame the epidemic prevention policy will inevitably complain about the shortage of medical resources in the future.

But for me, I can only pray that I am lucky enough, because it is impossible to stop the comprehensive recovery of social operation.
This is a depressing fact: in the face of nature, any efficient organization is doomed to be powerless. When we work hard enough but everyone else responds negatively, we are doomed to be doing useless work.

Western criticism does not go straight to the heart of the problem:
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This epidemic has given grass-roots civil servants the power that is inconsistent with their ability and quality.
They can decide the residents' right to activities at will,the reason is that they are the main responsible persons, so they often choose the most extreme means to avoid risks and reduce their workload. At the same time, this power can also be used to deal with those they do not like.

Anger is accumulated from these subtle places to a huge negative impact. The community is the final executor of the disease prevention and control plan, but it is clear that they are unable to implement this perfect plan.
Grass roots civil servants' abuse of power in the community will cause too much risk to the credibility of the government, which may be an important factor in policy change.

But the harm is inevitable, and the public cannot accept this 180 degree policy turn. Now virus detection and management have virtually disappeared.
 

ficker22

Senior Member
Registered Member
This is completely stupid to follow a minority to open before spring festival.

The majority supports the dynamic zero policy. We held for 3 years and these government idiot cannot wait 2 month? Hong Kong next door had thousands dead this season. If they fuck up then I would actually ask them to resign lol.

I wonder if they try to blame the CIA protests when shit hits the fan, and more so, if the people will swallow it.
 

Quickie

Colonel
Lets see out of

197,657 hospitalizations /124,822,336 mrna vaccinated =0.15%
4136 hospitalizations /2,635,200 inactivated vaccinated = 0.15%

1439 severe cases /197,657 Hospitalizations 3x mrna vaccinated = 0.72% severity
57 severe cases /4136 Hospitalizations 3x inactivated vaccinated = 1.37% Severity

*Severe cases does not mean death rate.

*The data may be bias because they sample more people with MRNA.

The >60 grouping needs to be broken down into 3 age groups.

It can make a lot of difference as seen by the Hong Kong University Study.

In the study, the death rate rises sharply from the 61-70 to 81-90 group, about 6 times with all in the groups considered irrespective of vaccination status. That can distort the reading quite a bit if the data is not broken down into different age groups when for example 20% more people in the 81-90 group (20% fewer people in the corresponding 61-70, 71 -80 groups) were vaccinated with Sinovac than Pfizer.

In the Singapore study, with 4 doses, Sinovac has 9 Severe cases VS Pfizer 12 Severe but the comparison is labeled as NA because of the too small a number. If that is the case why still say that 4 doses of Pfizer have less severe cases than 4 doses of Sinovac in the conclusion below when the number is too small for 4 doses of Sinovac to make a more accurate analysis?

"Our findings showed vaccination with four doses of mRNA vaccine was associated with lower rates of symptomatic SARS-CoV-2 infection, hospitalization, and severe COVID-19 compared with three mRNA vaccine doses and four doses of inactivated whole-virus vaccines or a combination of vaccine types."

Edit: Mistake there. Pfizer 12 Sever is for 3 doses. Pfizer 4 doses have 7 Severe.
 
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TK3600

Major
Registered Member
What anecdotes do you have to support this notion?

I guess there will always be proponents for the draconian aspect of zero Covid. But like I and many others here, who have based their opinions not just from observations around us, but testimonies from friends/family back home, this policy change was long overdue. Simply put China is not in the same situation as most advanced countries that have the luxury of a strong social safety net. When people were hit by lockdowns in the West, the compensations they received from the government were, generous to the say the least.

This wasn't the case in China where migrant workers, especially in the third year of zero covid, were often left to rot during hard lockdown. Much has been said already about the economic damages of zero covid, so I'm not going to beat a dead horse anymore. But more to the point, perhaps people could have been persuaded to put up with zero covid if the virus's severity still warranted it. The thing is though, nothing today suggests that. Sure you can bring up the statistics of people who are still dying globally from COVID, irrespective of how many of those are vaccinated. But humans are emotional creatures and images speak more to emotions than data.

Already people in China were showing signs of being fed up with zero covid during the second year of the virus. But the images and videos around of world of a virus that was still very much deadly, perhaps most encapsulated by Indians having to burn their dead in parking lots, was sure enough going to scare people into putting up with it. That's not the case with Omicron where, yeah people are still dying, but by and large as long as you are vaccinated it has all the severity of a flu and not many countries are seeing their medical systems overwhelmed despite being fully reopened.

Now yes, I agree vaccinating vulnerable populations is still a priority, which frankly the government should've gotten cracking on as soon as Omicron broke out. Whatever mistakes they made in the past year, its done. Now all we can focus on is the future and finally getting out of this situation through mass vaccinations, mask wearing, sanitary measures etc.
The protests for anti lock down is small and has larger antiprotest. More people support the government.

Also lol on the 'developed' country part. Chinese have more saving and more homeownership therefore more resilient. You are the one talking out of your ass here.
 

KYli

Brigadier
Finally a strong uptick in vaccination. Hopefully, most of these new vaccinations are elderly especially those over 80. 458,000 doses are good. If they could vaccinate a few millions per day for a few weeks, then things should be good. I still think it is a risky move from the government. Buying another month or so of time would be better but fear is probably the most effective tool to get these elderly to vaccinate.
截至2022年12月5日,31个省(自治区、直辖市)和新疆生产建设兵团累计报告接种新冠病毒疫苗344454.8万剂次。

截至2022年12月6日,31个省(自治区、直辖市)和新疆生产建设兵团累计报告接种新冠病毒疫苗344490.6万剂次。
 

Phead128

Captain
Staff member
Moderator - World Affairs
Looking at hard numbers here, if the US managed 2000+ deaths/intensive care a day at the current high vaccination rate, we must expect the same for China once they choose to let covid restrictions fully drop, with the same ratio of population multiplication. Infact I would expect the initial huge wave to cause a large amount of excessive deaths, simply because no amount of health infrastructure hardening is going to stop tens- hundreds of millions of cases.

There are no good choices here. But at least majority of Chinese population is healthy with low rates of obesity.

Isn't it currently 2000 US deaths per week, not day?

Also, 2000 US deaths per week, from 102 Million un-vaccinated adults (32% of US poulation)

China has 112 Million un-vaccinated adults (8% of Chinese population).

So it's possible China could have that amount of death rates. Which is why universal vaccination and boosting is absolutely mandatory (except for allergic/contraindicated pts), we have no clue why China waited so long to enforce universal vaccination. Truly unacceptable to wait until now.
 

KYli

Brigadier
Isn't it currently 2000 US deaths per week, not day?

Also, 2000 US deaths per week, from 102 Million un-vaccinated adults (32% of US poulation)

China has 112 Million un-vaccinated adults (8% of Chinese population).

So it's possible China could have that amount of death rates. Which is why universal vaccination and boosting is absolutely mandatory (except for allergic/contraindicated pts), we have no clue why China waited so long to enforce universal vaccination. Truly unacceptable to wait until now.
Not anymore, most of the deaths now come from the vaccinated adults. After a few waves of covid, those un-vaccinated adults have either died or have been infected multiple already. If things go well in China, we should be looking at Singapore and Japan level of deaths.
 

PeoplesPoster

Junior Member
Looking at hard numbers here, if the US managed 2000+ deaths/intensive care a day at the current high vaccination rate, we must expect the same for China once they choose to let covid restrictions fully drop, with the same ratio of population multiplication. Infact I would expect the initial huge wave to cause a large amount of excessive deaths, simply because no amount of health infrastructure hardening is going to stop tens- hundreds of millions of cases.

There are no good choices here. But at least majority of Chinese population is healthy with low rates of obesity.
A ton old people and smokers though.
 
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