COMAC C929 Widebody Airliner

pmc

Major
Registered Member
What????
A321XLR is a huge success by any measure. It already has several hundred orders and it still has yet to enter service anywhere. Most recently AC just ordered 26 XLRs.
Airbus hast delivered A321XLR yet and customers hasnt reviewed it. we dont know what is airbus cost structure post covid/post ukraine to pursue such half backed product.
Airlines tickets will become sky high and flying will be previlage. its better to have option Premium Economy/Economy.

As a whole, the market is moving toward large single aisle
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If you take a look at A320NEO orders/deliveries. A321NEOs (including LR/XLR) drastically outpaces A320NEO in the recent years. There is a reason for that. As engine technology improves, the most optimized aircraft is typically the largest one. You can take a look at how many people 737-100 seated vs how many MAX10 seats. These aircraft really grow over time.

The current market demand is for single aisle aircraft that goes further. C919 is probably good as a first generation mainline single aisle aircraft. C929 probably works well as a first generation mainline twin aisle aircraft. These are good projects for COMAC to start off with. If they want to have an internationally competitive aircraft, the ideal place to go for is the theoretical A320.5, A321 and A322 lineup. Again since C919 hasn't completed development yet, that product gap I just listed would be quite ambitious.
737-100 was different time. not many people were able to fly. now Airbus will have to reduce the variants of planes it produces otherwise what is coming is not for this thread.
which one will they reduce. A330 variants or A321XLR. A330 gives you flexibility to take 60% to 100% more passenger per flight and serve much longer range destinations at higher cruising speed with wide cabin for easy embarking and disembarking.
in long flights putting a slow A320 class aircraft is very unpleasant and each hour counts in turn around. you dont want sick crew.
 

gelgoog

Lieutenant General
Registered Member
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CR929 reformatted for Russian and Chinese components​

06/20/2022

In connection with sanctions against Russian civil aviation and possible restrictions against China due to Taiwan, the project of the Russian-Chinese wide-body aircraft CR929 will be revised and reformatted only for Russian and Chinese components. About this on June 17 on the sidelines of the St. Petersburg International Economic Forum declared Head of the Ministry of Industry and Trade of Russia Denis Manturov.

“The CR929 process is underway. But taking into account the new inputs, according to the restrictions that exist today in terms of cooperation, which was formed by Chinese partners with the involvement of Western manufacturers, this is now impossible, so you will have to spend time restructuring approaches using only Russian and Chinese manufacturers,” he said. . The Minister explained that the reconfiguration of suppliers will be completed during this year.

In December 2017, the Board of Directors of the CRAIC JV approved the results of the Gate 2 design phase. In the spring of 2018, the draft design phase, Gate 3, began. Several liner concepts were developed to evaluate the advantages and disadvantages of each of them, and the most acceptable liner concept was selected. In the summer, UAC and COMAC agreed on the general view of the aircraft. Agreements were reached on the main geometric parameters: wing span and shape, length, dimensions of the nose and tail parts of the fuselage, dimensions and shape of the plumage, the location of engines, landing gear and doors.

At the same time, RFP [Request For Proposal - request for proposals] was issued for all aircraft systems. In April - early May 2019, technical and commercial proposals were received from those suppliers who wanted to participate in the project. Gate 3 ended in 2019

At the Gate 4 stage, based on the results of the selection of suppliers, the integration of on-board systems was carried out, all experimental work related to the choice of the wing profile, its mechanization parameters, work to justify the choice of structural materials and related design solutions were completed. Gate 4 was scheduled to take place in 2020.

In November 2018, during the China Air International Air Show in Zhuhai, the chief designer of CR929 Maxim Litvinov said that CRAIC takes into account the potential risks from anti-Russian sanctions in its work, suppliers from Europe and the United States themselves are trying to level the political aspects that exist between countries, and itself the work is proceeding quite constructively.

“They themselves are looking for various proposals, various schemes. We, accordingly, for our part, propose how to proceed in this or that case,” he said.

On January 31, 2018, COMAC announced the completion of production tests of full-scale 15x6 meter composite fuselage panels, and at the end of December of the same year, the corporation manufactured and showed a composite prototype of its front end.

In 2020, due to the coronavirus pandemic, all CR929 events were moved to videoconferencing, including boards of directors. And at the end of September, the Asia Times reported that the project was stopped because serious disagreements interfered with the normal work of Russian and Chinese engineers.

The publication claimed that Russia was not going to transfer key technologies to the Celestial Empire and insisted on using the promising PD-35 engine as a power plant. In November of the same year, Denis Manturov and the Minister of Industry and Informatization of the People's Republic of China Xiao Yaqing confirmed their interest in further joint work and readiness to promptly resolve issues with the CR929 aircraft.

The PD-35 was proposed to equip the CR929 back in 2017 as an alternative to the Rolls-Royce turbofan. Then at one of the meetings on CR929 Denis Manturov told the Chinese negotiators: “Now there are two aircraft that have divided the world market - Airbus and Boeing. We are creating an alternative, they are unlikely to be happy. We will be at the finish line of creation - it suddenly turns out that for some reason these large engines did not reach - there are at least ten reasons for this.

Now the "Chinese comrades" have also realized the need to independently develop the vast majority of aircraft systems for the ShFDMS CR929. The sanctions delay the creation of this aircraft by 2-3 years, but given the experience of developing a composite wing in Russia, the current import substitution program for the MS-21 and SSJ-New, as well as intensive work on the PD-35 engine, the CR929 project will be implemented, because that in the future, the demand for a car of this class is clearly visible not only in China, but also in Russia, even despite the fact that many wide-body aircraft were parked with the pandemic.

The Russian-Chinese project of a long-haul wide-body aircraft, which should compete with the A330 and Boeing 777 liners, started in April 2014 with a memorandum of intent to create such a machine. The agreement was signed in 2016 during the official visit of Russian President Vladimir Putin to China. The project is being implemented by the United Aircraft Corporation PJSC and the Chinese COMAC through the CRAIC joint venture.
 

sunnymaxi

Captain
Registered Member
Chen Yingchun, chief designer of the CR929 says, first flight expected in 2025. so after all these sanctions can we expect delay atleast 2 to 3 years ?

initial units will use RR engines. coz both PD-35 and CJ-2000 timeline are almost same. 2027-2030
 

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gelgoog

Lieutenant General
Registered Member
That was what Manturov said. But what I expect is, both Russia and China will move forward the schedule of CR929 without Western modules. In the meantime the current scheduled aircraft with Western modules will likely be sustained. Except such an aircraft will not be suitable for Russian uses because of Western sanctions. So this particular model might be named C929. Russia will require an aircraft with non-Western components in it. So you can bet they will try to speed up the PD-35 program for CR929.

Manturov is pointing out that it is quite likely that the Western suppliers will drag their feet and may not deliver the components just like they did with MC-21's carbon fibers. Or With China's MA-700's engines. That the schedule with Western modules is not reliable. That the countries behind the Boeing and Airbus duopoly will try to torpedo any competition regardless of the claims they will provide for not delivering components.
 
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BoraTas

Captain
Registered Member
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CR929 reformatted for Russian and Chinese components​

06/20/2022

In connection with sanctions against Russian civil aviation and possible restrictions against China due to Taiwan, the project of the Russian-Chinese wide-body aircraft CR929 will be revised and reformatted only for Russian and Chinese components. About this on June 17 on the sidelines of the St. Petersburg International Economic Forum declared Head of the Ministry of Industry and Trade of Russia Denis Manturov.

“The CR929 process is underway. But taking into account the new inputs, according to the restrictions that exist today in terms of cooperation, which was formed by Chinese partners with the involvement of Western manufacturers, this is now impossible, so you will have to spend time restructuring approaches using only Russian and Chinese manufacturers,” he said. . The Minister explained that the reconfiguration of suppliers will be completed during this year.

In December 2017, the Board of Directors of the CRAIC JV approved the results of the Gate 2 design phase. In the spring of 2018, the draft design phase, Gate 3, began. Several liner concepts were developed to evaluate the advantages and disadvantages of each of them, and the most acceptable liner concept was selected. In the summer, UAC and COMAC agreed on the general view of the aircraft. Agreements were reached on the main geometric parameters: wing span and shape, length, dimensions of the nose and tail parts of the fuselage, dimensions and shape of the plumage, the location of engines, landing gear and doors.

At the same time, RFP [Request For Proposal - request for proposals] was issued for all aircraft systems. In April - early May 2019, technical and commercial proposals were received from those suppliers who wanted to participate in the project. Gate 3 ended in 2019

At the Gate 4 stage, based on the results of the selection of suppliers, the integration of on-board systems was carried out, all experimental work related to the choice of the wing profile, its mechanization parameters, work to justify the choice of structural materials and related design solutions were completed. Gate 4 was scheduled to take place in 2020.

In November 2018, during the China Air International Air Show in Zhuhai, the chief designer of CR929 Maxim Litvinov said that CRAIC takes into account the potential risks from anti-Russian sanctions in its work, suppliers from Europe and the United States themselves are trying to level the political aspects that exist between countries, and itself the work is proceeding quite constructively.

“They themselves are looking for various proposals, various schemes. We, accordingly, for our part, propose how to proceed in this or that case,” he said.

On January 31, 2018, COMAC announced the completion of production tests of full-scale 15x6 meter composite fuselage panels, and at the end of December of the same year, the corporation manufactured and showed a composite prototype of its front end.

In 2020, due to the coronavirus pandemic, all CR929 events were moved to videoconferencing, including boards of directors. And at the end of September, the Asia Times reported that the project was stopped because serious disagreements interfered with the normal work of Russian and Chinese engineers.

The publication claimed that Russia was not going to transfer key technologies to the Celestial Empire and insisted on using the promising PD-35 engine as a power plant. In November of the same year, Denis Manturov and the Minister of Industry and Informatization of the People's Republic of China Xiao Yaqing confirmed their interest in further joint work and readiness to promptly resolve issues with the CR929 aircraft.

The PD-35 was proposed to equip the CR929 back in 2017 as an alternative to the Rolls-Royce turbofan. Then at one of the meetings on CR929 Denis Manturov told the Chinese negotiators: “Now there are two aircraft that have divided the world market - Airbus and Boeing. We are creating an alternative, they are unlikely to be happy. We will be at the finish line of creation - it suddenly turns out that for some reason these large engines did not reach - there are at least ten reasons for this.

Now the "Chinese comrades" have also realized the need to independently develop the vast majority of aircraft systems for the ShFDMS CR929. The sanctions delay the creation of this aircraft by 2-3 years, but given the experience of developing a composite wing in Russia, the current import substitution program for the MS-21 and SSJ-New, as well as intensive work on the PD-35 engine, the CR929 project will be implemented, because that in the future, the demand for a car of this class is clearly visible not only in China, but also in Russia, even despite the fact that many wide-body aircraft were parked with the pandemic.

The Russian-Chinese project of a long-haul wide-body aircraft, which should compete with the A330 and Boeing 777 liners, started in April 2014 with a memorandum of intent to create such a machine. The agreement was signed in 2016 during the official visit of Russian President Vladimir Putin to China. The project is being implemented by the United Aircraft Corporation PJSC and the Chinese COMAC through the CRAIC joint venture.
This is quite interesting. This would confine its market to pretty much China and Russia. But I think China is doing the right thing by continuing the now unwesternized project.

1- China needs a non-Western wide-body airliner. That's a given for the obvious reason.
2- Even though Chinese aerospace is advanced enough to build 5th gen fighters and Mars landers, there is a specific lack of experience in large and high-serviceability aircraft. A wide-body airliner project is extremely rewarding for China regardless of if it profits or not.
3- It makes geopolitical sense to not sever the existing ties with Russia.
 

sunnymaxi

Captain
Registered Member
2- Even though Chinese aerospace is advanced enough to build 5th gen fighters and Mars landers, there is a specific lack of experience in large and high-serviceability aircraft. A wide-body airliner project is extremely rewarding for China regardless of if it profits or not.
yeah right. but China have learned a lot from C919 project. COMAC itself says, after C919 experience we are capable to build large civilian aircraft. CR929 designing , R&D , wind tunnel test and other aero dynamics tests are performed in Shanghai. and obviously with Russian help this project will be easy to take off. Russian partnership will boost market expansion for COMAC. USSR/Russia have massive influence in Africa, Central Asia , Southeast Asia, and Latin America. That is the most likely export market in near future.
 
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