COIN aircraft for the PLAAF?

Miragedriver said:

Getting back to insurgents. Due to the insurgents’ lack of sophisticated anti-aircraft weapons, the aircraft deployed against them can themselves be somewhat unsophisticated, and therefore significantly cheaper. Take the example of fast jets (F-16, F-15, and Tornado’s) recently deployed to Afghanistan, the question needs to be asked, “is the coalition using a sledgehammer and not a hammer to crack a nut?’

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It depends on who's fighting insurgents. If it's some banana republic, then COIN aircrafts like the Buckaroo or Super Tucano might just be what the doctor ordered, but if it's the US, then even two or three shootdowns by insurgents with MANPADs would be framed as catastrophes by the lame stream media.

Blackstone said:

It depends on who's fighting insurgents. If it's some banana republic, then COIN aircrafts like the Buckaroo or Super Tucano might just be what the doctor ordered, but if it's the US, then even two or three shootdowns by insurgents with MANPADs would be framed as catastrophes by the lame stream media.

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The “Catastrophe” of a loss of a pilot (captured or KIA) is more of a drama in recent times. During the Vietnam era, the USA lost several pilots. Granted it was an unpopular war, but the public was more accepting of fatalities in combat. It is an unfortunate thing that young men die in war. That is why it should never be entered into lightly.

Back to the COIN aircraft. It is an economical and versatile tool that can be utilized against the enemy. It is economical to acquire and maintain with the added benefit of not requiring a long runway and support personnel. It can also be stationed forward to respond to ground support/forward observation needs. It is not to be the only tool in your arsenal. But one of many that can be utilized when needed.


I will now get back to bottling my Malbec

Miragedriver said:

The “Catastrophe” of a loss of a pilot (captured or KIA) is more of a drama in recent times. During the Vietnam era, the USA lost several pilots. Granted it was an unpopular war, but the public was more accepting of fatalities in combat. It is an unfortunate thing that young men die in war. That is why it should never be entered into lightly.

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But, we have female combat pilots now, and insurgents parading a captured whiskey on CNN would cause real problems for the Pentagon and WH. Maybe the US should just train locals for COIN operations of all sorts and let them fight it out among themselves.

Back to COIN Aircraft. As already stated these aircraft have a low IR signature that would make it difficult for most MANPADs to lock onto and kill and while the payload of them is usually a maximum of around 750kgs this doesn’t stop them being employed in two or three aircraft flights. Each aircraft could (inexpensively) be fitted with the following: MANPAD defense with a flare/Decoy pod; with a radar jammer (see picture below); with a sub munition dispenser/missile.



This concept, of course, goes against the grain of large first world Air Forces, where you need to have a multi-million dollar aircraft with everything loaded onto it that will make a spectacular explosion when destroyed as it fits neatly into the category of “targets” by the defense system parameters. Whereas a couple of flights of small one, or two, engine mass produced COIN aircraft would seem to stand a much better chance of getting close enough to the target to cause significant damage and support ground forces

I will now get back to bottling my Malbec

TerraN_EmpirE said:

Eventually its likely a UCAV or a compound attack helicopter or both will take the job. But MANPADs have there limitations and a coin bird could probably work around them. Take a look at the latest of the AC130 series arguably the largest COIN turbo prop. They have stripped away the gatling guns, the 40mm the 105mm cannons in favor of bombs, rockets and guided missiles with just a token 30mm bushmaster. The downside is cost those weapons expensive and number shots available compared to that of the shells and occasional barrel change of the older types. The upside is range. Stand off range. A Manpads has to be comparatively close to its target to lock and kill. These coin birds may be cheap and slow compared to a fighter but with the right load out a Coin can deliver the goods from beyond the enemies range of attack.
heck who knows perhaps that future Coin Ucav will be built from today's Coin aircraft with a sat com and computer where the cockpit used to be.

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Personally I think the overall price of MQ-9 is too much for anything other than standoff attacks which should be doable by in-theatre jets or C-130 gunship. It would be nice if the UAV were to stick to surveillance and had the ability to launch heavy loads of cluster munitions (yes I know these are illegal).

Also Helicopters stand less of a chance of survival that COIN aircraft. RI signature (compared to a turboprop, much louder and detectable)


I will now get back to bottling my Malbec

Miragedriver said:

Personally I think the overall price of MQ-9 is too much for anything other than standoff attacks which should be doable by in-theatre jets or C-130 gunship. It would be nice if the UAV were to stick to surveillance and had the ability to launch heavy loads of cluster munitions (yes I know these are illegal).

Also Helicopters stand less of a chance of survival that COIN aircraft. RI signature (compared to a turboprop, much louder and detectable)


I will now get back to bottling my Malbec

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The Role of a Coin is not just attack. infact the UCAV's like the predator matches that of the Coin platform nicely. a light surveillance platform meant to strike targets of opportunity. Heavier strikes can be followed on with real heavy killers.
Note I said Compound helicopters not helicopters They may be louder but many use the same engines. Additionally a Compound helicopter has the advantage of not needing a runway. A large helicopter pad can service them. Compound designs also place less stress on getting forward velocity form there rotors and reduce or alleviate need of a tail rotor the primary source of sound for a conventional helicopter. this means that a Compound helicopter can match a Turbo prop in speed operate from a wider range of bases, be quieter and maintain a close signature

I believe that even a compound helicopter may be too noisy. Speaking for compound helicopter have you seen the Catercopter?

[video=youtube;yqAFiA0Jc2c]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yqAFiA0Jc2c[/video]

I will now get back to bottling my Malbec

Coin Aircraft are not always skimming the ground nor do I think that a Compound type will necessarily be much louder then a Turboprop, well definitely quieter then a Fighter Jet. Now Such a platform might not have some shortcomings sure but the advantages of being able to land anywhere a helicopter can, being able to hover and maneuver.

Now For The PLAAF such might not meet there needs. Although I also feel a Full Y8 is over kill to.The Primary Coin need for the PLAAF would likely be along the Southern Edge of China and the High Plateau.
A twin engine high altitude long loiter A Y12 with wing mounted hard points and a 14.7mm MG would be a Coin option or a CJ7/L10 with hardpoints and previsions for Gunpods and defences could fill a light option.

TerraN_EmpirE said:

Coin Aircraft are not always skimming the ground nor do I think that a Compound type will necessarily be much louder then a Turboprop, well definitely quieter then a Fighter Jet. Now Such a platform might not have some shortcomings sure but the advantages of being able to land anywhere a helicopter can, being able to hover and maneuver.

Now For The PLAAF such might not meet there needs. Although I also feel a Full Y8 is over kill to.The Primary Coin need for the PLAAF would likely be along the Southern Edge of China and the High Plateau.
A twin engine high altitude long loiter A Y12 with wing mounted hard points and a 14.7mm MG would be a Coin option or a CJ7/L10 with hardpoints and previsions for Gunpods and defences could fill a light option.

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A Y-12 is too light. Considering how porous China's western border is and its proximity to troubled states with armed and organized militants, a convoy of ISIS-like militants appearing in technicals with HMGs, AA guns, and MANPADs (or even heavier equipment) one day is conceivable especially if there are sponsors for such activities. To nip something like this in the bud China will need timely intelligence and timely intervention which can be best provided in the air. A Y-8 gunship (or several) will be just what the doctor ordered. Helicopter and ground units can follow on for mop up operations.

The Advantage of that light weight is it's faster on the call. the Us Recently evaluated the C27J for potential use as a Gunship light. Almost introduced it. A number of other Western nations are now moving to pick it up including Italy in the form of the MC-27J Pretorian and the AC235 form Jordan,
The key advantage being that the lighter platform could take off from a wider number of fields. be built in larger numbers for a lower price A light gunship can also be used for more patrol and recon missions. It would also not be the first time a craft of the Y12's weight class the Britten-Norman Defender for example.