COIN aircraft for the PLAAF?

challenge said:

you see some country has tie control over explosive and fire arm, but that does not prevent them enter countries.
example was sri langka vivil war, algerian civil war...,if they fanatically and determine to carry out the attack,they will.

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So you think those jihadists hijacking trucks to crash into people or storming police stations armed with knives are not fanatical or determined to carry out attacks?

They would love to be using automatic rifles and military grade explosives. There are illegal guns in China, and mining explosives do sometimes go missing.

Those guns and explosives do not end up in the hands of these fanatics because there is no popular support for their actions, even amongst their 'own' people.

Your examples of the Sri Lanka and Algeria civil wars are just pure wishful thinking because there is nothing remotely like the social divide or popular local support for these loonies. The IRA had vastly more support, did civil war break out there?

As usual, you are letting your wet dream about China collapsing in flashes cloud what judgement you have.

wolf, let's stop arguing with people who don't intent to accept "something else", and keeps this thread clean of potential racial bash, none needed here.

I have a reason coming out on my own, regarding "why China do not make COINs plane to earn some money?" - Which is, I assume the CMC (boss of all) having more concerns on "productivity rate" across the nation for all kinds of internal usage, rather than some hard money which China not so lacking of these days. You see, you need good factories and all sorts of skilled professionals to keep a production line running, and it's better pop out FC-1s (for export) or JH-7s (for self-use) rather than those "only good for export" COINs, esp when any other power nation across the world can back stab you, by do some funny deals with your targeted customers, when you having potential to ruin the whole production line to yourself.

No offence again Miragedriver, China can't help Argetina this time, if you can not "wholesale" bulk book the whole production line's worth of products, be it COIN planes, or ceromony coins.

Red___Sword said:

wolf, let's stop arguing with people who don't intent to accept "something else", and keeps this thread clean of potential racial bash, none needed here.

I have a reason coming out on my own, regarding "why China do not make COINs plane to earn some money?" - Which is, I assume the CMC (boss of all) having more concerns on "productivity rate" across the nation for all kinds of internal usage, rather than some hard money which China not so lacking of these days. You see, you need good factories and all sorts of skilled professionals to keep a production line running, and it's better pop out FC-1s (for export) or JH-7s (for self-use) rather than those "only good for export" COINs, esp when any other power nation across the world can back stab you, by do some funny deals with your targeted customers, when you having potential to ruin the whole production line to yourself.

No offence again Miragedriver, China can't help Argetina this time, if you can not "wholesale" bulk book the whole production line's worth of products, be it COIN planes, or ceromony coins.

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Again Red_Sword, no offence taken. You have very eloquently provided an explanation for China not having developed, or considered for export, a COIN aircraft.

And just to clarify I don’t believe that Argentina was look for any hand out in the COIN aircraft department. Either give or receiving.

Miragedriver said:

And just to clarify I don’t believe that Argentina was look for any hand out in the COIN aircraft department. Either give or receiving.

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OK I got it wrong as if Argentina is looking for such planes.

I don't know whether it would be "too much" if JH-7 are actually used, in case any real insergency situation. The fact is, one time two times, we can live with it (that no COINs do the job), rather than abovementioned all the trouble to make something pretty "Chicken rib" 鸡肋. In Chinese culture, chiken rib as food, if you eat it as a dish, you don't actually eat much go through all the trouble to making it "eat ready" status; if you throw it away, you would always find reason to blame yourself being wasteful, later. 食之无味，弃之可惜。

That's what I thought about COIN plane in service of PLA / trouble the sales people to slash ways through international market.

K-8 exported to Venezuela are meant more for COIN mission than as a trainer. In fact all types of trainer jets can be easily fitted for COIN operation, or converted into dedicated COIN aircraft.

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lcloo said:

K-8 exported to Venezuela are meant more for COIN mission than as a trainer. In fact all types of trainer jets can be easily fitted for COIN operation, or converted into dedicated COIN aircraft.

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I think the idea is to patrol the borders, to prevent an incursion from a neighbor (such a thing took place a few years back). I don't know of any insurgency in Venezuela.

I always thought of COIN aircraft as search and destroy interdiction assets.

They can cover large areas quickly, and engage any targets of opportunity that they spot.

However, such assets are really only useful if government ground forces have completely lost control of large areas of their own territory. That has never happened in China, and is not remotely likely to happen.

I have not heard of any examples where an insurgency has been defeated by air power. Ultimately, if you want to beat the insurgents and impose law and order, there is no substitute for boots on the ground. The answer is the same no matter if it is home grown insurgents or infiltrating foreign fighters.

I have always been unconvinced of the usefulness of COIN aircraft. They just seem like a means to buy time as opposed to being an effective solution. COIN aircraft will take a toll on insurgents and slow their progress, but as I pointed out before, you cannot root out the problem with air power, and if you want to solve the problem once and for all, you need to go in on the ground, in force.

For boarder patrol duties, a COIN aircraft would be pretty unsuitable. They are too fast and usually lack the necessary optics to make out anything useful. If you have a bunch of illegal immigrants or even smugglers slipping across the boarder, blasting them with rockets is a bit harsh I think.

For boarder patrolling, helos remain the best air asset. You still have good mobility and range, but will likely also have the optics to get a good look at targets of interest, and also have the option of landing and dropping off a few boarder guards to take people into custody until a ground unit can come and pick them up.

Red_Sword. You made very good points. I followed up on the use of UAVs as a COIN aircraft and it’s very effective use in Afghanistan and Iraq against insurgents. These aircraft can stay aloft for a sizable amount of time, use precision-guided munitions and do all this without putting a pilots life in jeopardy.
With that said perhaps I am behind the times in not seeing the role of the UAV as a COIN aircraft. However, there must be some military value that is provided by the presence of a COIN aircraft strafing, bombing, causing mayhem and demoralizing enemy troops (on the advance or retreat). Having your own force protected by an aerial presence and the instinct that a human pilot in the aircraft can bring in support of ground forces.

I think there is a military value to having COIN aircraft. Although I do not see how a dedicated ground attack plane like the A10, Su25 and even the Q5 would not be able to do a better job than a jet trainer or turboprop COIN bird.

The only advantage a dedicated COIN aircraft have over war fighting ground attack planes is lower purchase and operating costs. But the COIN bird pays for that as it will be weaker in every operationally relevant way compared to the likes listed above.

You are correct in your assessment. That the work performed by COIN aircraft can also be performed by dedicated ground attack aircraft.

The only advantage the COIN aircraft has is loiter time, inexpensive maintenance and inexpensive acquisition cost (which in turn allow you to purchase more).

The draw back being that they will probably suffer a high combat loss rate due to ground fire, most (if not all) are not all weather capable and that their effective combat load is reduced, thereby requiring more sorties and another opportunity to be shot at.