Climate Change and Renewable Energy News and Discussion

tacoburger

Junior Member
Registered Member
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

China is a world leader in onshore wind turbines too.

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

China is likely to install nearly three times more wind turbines and solar panels by 2030 than it’s current target, helping drive the world’s biggest fuel importer toward energy self-sufficiency, according to Goldman Sachs Group Inc.

Falling costs will make around-the-clock clean power increasingly profitable, leading to the rapid deployment of renewables and batteries, analysts including Nikhil Bhandari and Amber Cai said in a report on Monday. Solar and wind capacity will reach 3,300 gigawatts by 2030, well ahead of the government’s target of 1,200 gigawatts.
Such a vast fleet of intermittent generation will require about 520 gigawatts of energy storage, around 410 gigawatts of which would come from batteries and the rest from pumped hydro facilities, according to the analysts. That means battery storage capacity would be 70 times higher than the level seen at the end of 2021.
China’s rapid energy transition will require about $8 trillion of investment through 2040 in power generation, storage and grid upgrades. Still, decoupling power from fossil fuels will lead to lower, and less volatile, generation costs from 2030, the analysts said.
It will also allow China — the world’s biggest oil, gas and coal importer — to reduce its dependence on foreign fuels. By 2060, China’s energy imports will fall to just 92 million tons of coal equivalent, from 1.14 billion tons in 2021, the analysts forecast.

Goldman’s forecasts aren’t dissimilar to other researchers. In a scenario designed to put China on the pathway to reaching net zero emissions by 2050 — 10 years ahead of Beijing’s current target — BloombergNEF estimated the country would have 3,345 gigawatts of wind and solar and 392 gigawatts of energy storage by 2030.

Interesting article from bloomberg, who is famously very pessimistic about China. The part that interested me the most is the part about falling energy imports. From 1.14 billion coal equivalent energy to 92 million. I have no idea how they came to this number, seeing as there's really no reliable method to forecast future energy demand 40 years into the future, nor to mention how China nuclear fleet or how domestic fossil fuel industry can vastly change the figures. Not to mention that nuclear fusion could finally be at play by 2060.

But if it's somewhat accurate, then existing land based infrastructure can easily supply that demand. This will change the geopolitics of energy markets a lot, especially since China's energy imports will start decreasing alot sooner than 2060, maybe as soon as 2030.
 

vincent

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Moderator - World Affairs
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

China is a world leader in onshore wind turbines too.

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!



Interesting article from bloomberg, who is famously very pessimistic about China. The part that interested me the most is the part about falling energy imports. From 1.14 billion coal equivalent energy to 92 million. I have no idea how they came to this number, seeing as there's really no reliable method to forecast future energy demand 40 years into the future, nor to mention how China nuclear fleet or how domestic fossil fuel industry can vastly change the figures. Not to mention that nuclear fusion could finally be at play by 2060.

But if it's somewhat accurate, then existing land based infrastructure can easily supply that demand. This will change the geopolitics of energy markets a lot, especially since China's energy imports will start decreasing alot sooner than 2060, maybe as soon as 2030.
Energy demand made up only one part of crude oil and natural gas imports. Chemical and other industrial use is another big part of the imports
 

tphuang

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
VIP Professional
Registered Member
The hydrogen conference is this week and I'm pretty sure they are going to drastically raise the projected Green H2 totals

CEEC signed two major projects with Jilian province

First one will have 10.5B RMB investment in phase one (29.6B RMB in total) to have 800MW of wind power & 100MW of solar and electrolysis equipment that can produce 45k hydrogen a year, 200k t of synthetic ammonia and 20k t of green methanol
A little more on this particular project. Someone I respect posted this
3月14日,在吉林省招商引资座谈会上,中能建氢能源与松原市人民政府签署中能建松原氢能产业园(绿色氢氨醇一体化)项目投资框架协议。
据悉,该项目是吉林省首批“氢动吉林”大型氢基化工示范项目,总投资296亿元,计划分三期建设60万吨绿色合成氨/醇和氢能装备产业生产线。
此次签约的一期项目投资105亿元,建设内容包括:90万千瓦
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
(80万千瓦风电、10万千瓦光伏),年产4.5万吨电解水制氢装置、20万吨级柔性合成氨装置和2万吨绿色甲醇装置。项目计划于2023年5月开工建设,2024年建成投产
This has to be one of the largest porject ever. 3 phases will produce 600K t of green ammonia. The first phase alone will require 45k t of hydrogen production in order to produce the 200k t of ammonia and 20k t of methanol. So, 3 phases likely to represent 135k t of H2 production in order to synthesize 600k t of ammonia. Start construction in May and start production in 2024.

氢能是未来的能源中心
风电和光伏配合稳定供电,然后用绿电制氢和合成氨。
氨是除氢以外最宜生产的可再生燃料,具有极其重要的战略资源价值。氨可由水中的氢和空气中的氮合成,并在氨燃料电池或氨内燃机或氧化燃烧时还原为水和空气。在目前普遍采用的工业化合成氨生产中,所需的氮可自空气中直接获得。而氢的来源则为天然气、煤炭、石油、生物质及水。随着未来天然气的供不应求,氢的来源势必渐以煤、生物质和水为主,并最终依赖生物质与水。
氨具备常用燃料所须的各大特点:廉价、易得、易挥发、便储存,低污染,高燃烧值,高辛烷值,操作相对安全,可与一般材料兼容等。在作为燃料的普及应用上,氨较氢的最大优越性在于其能量密度大(同体积含能量液氨是液氢的1.5倍以上)、易液化(常压下负33摄氏度或常温下9个大气压均可使氨液化而氢在负240摄氏度以上则无法液化)、易储运(普通液化气钢瓶即可储氨而储氢则需特殊材料)。
液氨的比重与汽油相近。氨每千克5090大卡,汽油每千克10296大卡,虽其燃烧值仅约为汽油的一半,然而氨的辛烷值却远高于汽油,因而可大大增加内燃机压缩比以提高输出功率。氨内燃机的热效率可达50%甚至近60%,是通常汽油内燃机的两倍以上,因此也就足以在多种用途中成为可取代汽油的燃料。
液氨不但将成为汽车和轮船的燃料,还可以成为航空航天的重要燃料。对航空航天领域来说,液氨的安全性将成为它被选作燃料的一个特别重要的因素。
电解水制氢合成氨技术是将完全清洁的可再生电力资源转换为原料氢气,再与从空气中分离出的氮气一起合成液氨,该项目为首例仅采用电力作为生产原料的合成氨项目,这不仅可以将白白流失的‘弃电’化废为宝加以利用,还为化工生产提供新的氢源获取途径。氢是化工产业的‘血液’,基本上所有的化工生产都离不开氢气,如果可再生能源电解水技术能进一步推广到其他化工或材料行业,将有效提高可再生资源利用率,大大降低一次化石能源的消耗,为‘双碳’目标的实现贡献重大力量,意义非凡
Why is H2 the energy source of future? You can produce green hydrogen cheaply through wind/solar and then synthesize Ammonia.
NH3 is most suitable green energy source. You can get Nitrogen from air and use Hydrogen from natural gas, coal, oil, biomass or water. Eventually just biomass & water.

NH3 is a lot better for transportation and more energy dense than H2. It can be liquefied at -33 degree at normal pressure.
Energy density of NH3 is half of gasoline, but higher octane number of NH3 means you can have far more efficient engine. Thermal efficiency of NH3 combustion engine can reach 60% (possibly higher based on some sites)
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
At full load, the engine performance with pure ammonia was comparable with the one obtained with methane used as a reference, with an indicated efficiency of about 36%
So ammonia could eventually be used in aerospace, cars & ships.

This project is the first one to just use electricity as the raw material to produce hydrogen and then ammonia from air. Basically, you can take excess electricity and convert that to hydrogen and ammonia. Hydrogen is needed in all the chemical industry.
 

tphuang

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
VIP Professional
Registered Member
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
SPIC and CRRC signed a huge deal for a new green hydrogen/ammonia plant in Hebei province. It will consist of 2.1GW or wind power & 300MW of solar power with a 40MW/MWh ESS and capable of storing 900,000t hydrogen a year & 500,000t of ammonia. Also able to reduce 2million tons of carbon emissions per year. Huge project.

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
Xinjiang also starting major new hydrogen project with 8.146B RMB investment to build 1GW of solar farm to power 2000 NM3/hr of hydrogen production and 2t hydrogen fuel stations

Back in 2022, Sinohytec signed agreement with Yining gov't to promote solar powered green hydrogen there. 1st phase to be completed and put into operation by end of 2023. Estimated to produce 20,000t of green H2 a year. They are also looking to build 20 H2 refueling stations, able to meet the needs of > 3000 H2 fuel cell heavy trucks. Sound like the first major green H2 project aimed at supply FCEVs
 

tphuang

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
VIP Professional
Registered Member
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
China's NEA data for Jan-Feb
New installation numbers:
Solar 20.37GW 952% up YoY!
Wind 5.84GW 10% up
Hydro 1.23GW 71% down
Thermal 5.7GW 97% up

High thermal concerns many, but those are installed (along with ESS) as backup for wind/solar outages

I just found the solar number to be so outrageous unbelievable.
 

gelgoog

Lieutenant General
Registered Member
"Green" hydrogen as a fuel is a boondoggle. You are turning something precious, electricity, into a low density fuel that is hard to store. Even if you then use the most efficient way to convert the hydrogen into motive power, fuel cells, the fuel cells are like 40-60% efficient at converting the hydrogen back into electricity. So you basically threw 40-60% of the energy to the trash. And that is ignoring energy losses in the electrolysis process (typically it is like 90% efficient) and transportation and storage of the hydrogen fuel (which some say might have losses of like 20% depending on the way you store it). Batteries are like 80-90% efficient. It is pretty clear which one is superior for personal transportation. Batteries.

As for using ammonia as fuel, ammonia is corrosive and toxic. China is only now removing ammonia like fuels from use in their rockets due to environmental concerns, and you want to use it to replace the way larger amounts of fuel used in cars? Rockets do not even use ammonia, because of its lack of stability, they use fuels like hydrazine or UDMH, which are similar to ammonia, they are also corrosive and toxic, but way more stable, i.e. they don't decompose when stored as easily.
 
Last edited:

tphuang

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
VIP Professional
Registered Member
"Green" hydrogen as a fuel is a boondoggle. You are turning something precious, electricity, into a low density fuel that is hard to store. Even if you then use the most efficient way to convert the hydrogen into motive power, fuel cells, the fuel cells are like 40-60% efficient at converting the hydrogen back into electricity. So you basically threw 40-60% of the energy to the trash. And that is ignoring energy losses in the electrolysis process (typically it is like 90% efficient) and transportation and storage of the hydrogen fuel (which some say might have losses of like 20% depending on the way you store it). Batteries are like 80-90% efficient. It is pretty clear which one is superior for personal transportation. Batteries.

As for using ammonia as fuel, ammonia is corrosive and toxic. China is only now removing ammonia like fuels from use in their rockets due to environmental concerns, and you want to use it to replace the way larger amounts of fuel used in cars? Rockets do not even use ammonia, because of its lack of stability, they use fuels like UDMH, which are similar to ammonia, they are also corrosive and toxic, but way more stable, i.e. they don't decompose when stored as easily.
Well, you see Europe is leading the move to net-0 by 2050, so they are going to need green ammonia. Great market to sell and control energy supply to.

Even beyond that, China naturally has great demand for both hydrogen and ammonia (mostly for fertilizers) that is not generated using green electricity at the moment. And more importantly, they are going to be generating a lot of excessive solar/wind electricity that will need to be stored somewhere. Better to store in ammonia cells than building more coal plants as backups.
 

gelgoog

Lieutenant General
Registered Member
Pumped storage facilities or flow batteries are much better ways to store the electricity in bulk. They have minimal losses compared with conversion to hydrogen. Green hydrogen is a boondoggle. And if China really needs hydrogen for whatever limited process requirements it has, it is much cheaper to reform it out of natural gas, like everyone does today. Only if, for whatever reason, you do not have access to hydrocarbons does it make sense to even consider splitting hydrogen from water.
 
Last edited:

tphuang

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
VIP Professional
Registered Member
Pumped storage facilities or flow batteries are much better ways to store the electricity in bulk. They have minimal losses compared with conversion to hydrogen. Green hydrogen is a boondoggle. And if China really needs hydrogen for whatever limited process requirements it has, it is much cheaper to reform it out of natural gas, like everyone does today. Only if, for whatever reason, you do not have access to hydrocarbons does it make sense to even consider splitting hydrogen from water.
You see, China has 0-carbon goals that it wants to meet. It has this great market called Europe that it wants to supply in the future. More importantly, it will be able to produce green Hydrogen at lower cost than natural gas pretty soon. They are already at $2.5/kg of green hydrogen vs $2/kg from natural gas. At the current rate of improvement/cost in hydrogen technology and wind/solar, green hydrogen is going to get to $1/kg in a few years.

The technology you develop for saltwater splitting can also be used to harvest other minerals from water. You can create aquaculture in the same area. You end up harvesting a lot of energy that otherwise goes to waste.

Your other point about pumped storage doesn't really work. The most promising renewable development site are in deserts or offshore wind/solar farms. Neither are places you can put pumped hydro.
 

gelgoog

Lieutenant General
Registered Member
So, you lack water, and you will split freshwater with electrolysis to produce hydrogen. Right.
As for saltwater splitting, good luck making that in an energy efficient way.
 
Top