Climate Change and Renewable Energy News and Discussion

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AndrewS

Brigadier
Registered Member
Xsizor said:
CATL has a sodium ion battery program that started production. But the performance of the first gen Na ion batteries aren't as good as Li batteries regarding energy densities. They do work under low temperatures so that maybe a plus when exporting cars / trucks to Global North.
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You don't need high battery density in Chinese cities where distances are short.
And you've got a few hundred million people in China who experience sub-zero conditions in the winter.
 
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sndef888

Captain
Registered Member
AndrewS said:
This is the latest automotive battery pricing I can see

$115/KWh (Tesla - Lithium Nickel Cobalt Aluminum Oxide)
$99/KWh (BYD blade - Lithium Ferrous Phosphate)
$77/KWh (2022 CATL - Sodium ion)

The Sodium-Ion batteries are interesting because it's a comparatively new battery chemistry and only just starting mass-production.
Once they've ramped up in 2023, the price is to drop by half from $77/KWh to perhaps $40/KWh

At $40/KWh, a 50KWh car battery pack would only cost $2000.

Currently, 20% of car sales in China are for NEVs.
But if battery costs drop by half in the next 2 years, we will see further explosive growth in China and also elsewhere.

That will apply particular to developing markets where Japanese automakers have significant market share.
But what will happen if Chinese automakers start coming in with electric vehicles which cost less to run than the Japanese combustion-engine vehicles?

cleantechnica.com/2021/07/30/catl-reveals-sodium-ion-battery-with-160-wh-kg-energy-density/
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Xsizor said:
CATL has a sodium ion battery program that started production. But the performance of the first gen Na ion batteries aren't as good as Li batteries regarding energy densities. They do work under low temperatures so that maybe a plus when exporting cars / trucks to Global North.
Click to expand...
How viable are sodium ion batteries in the short term? Is there a chance it will be commercialised like LFP or is it mostly just hype?
 
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AndrewS

Brigadier
Registered Member
sndef888 said:
How viable are sodium ion batteries in the short term? Is there a chance it will be commercialised like LFP or is it mostly just hype?
Click to expand...

CATL already produces sodium-ion batteries for other non-automotive customers.

At a minimum, the chemistry should work for the lower cost automotive segments and for fixed applications like grid batteries, due to its lower costs but greater space requirement
 
Xizor

Xizor

Captain
Registered Member
sndef888 said:
How viable are sodium ion batteries in the short term? Is there a chance it will be commercialised like LFP or is it mostly just hype?
Click to expand...
There is a configuration where Sodium cells are placed along with Lithium ion cells. So, the batteries will benefit from advantages of both.
An intelligent control unit selects particular cell configuration for power consumption according to the conditions.
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Not hype,afaik.
 
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gelgoog

Lieutenant General
Registered Member
I think what will happen is the same thing which happened with customers of Algerian ammonia in Southern Europe. It will decimate the German fertilizer industry. All the plants in Northern Europe which generate ammonia from natural gas for fertilizer and explosives will shut down and just use Russian ammonia directly as process input. Combine that with the outrageous prices Europe is getting for natural gas because of its misguided energy policy and it will speed up the process.
 
Godzilla

Godzilla

Junior Member
Registered Member
They could tag a Urea plant at the end of it and they'll solve the CO2 problem too. They won't need the storage cause they will need the CO2 to react with the Ammonia to make the Urea.
 
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dingyibvs

Junior Member
AF-1 said:
I suppose this is totally different type of development, nothing related with recently developed molten salt reactor?
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Completely unrelated. Both are 4th gen reactors, but the Thorium MSR, in its final form, is the holy grail of fission tech. We're pretty far from it though. Even the next iteration planned still won't be able to operate entirely on a Thorium cycle and will need some addition of Uranium.
 
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Overbom

Brigadier
Registered Member
dingyibvs said:
Completely unrelated. Both are 4th gen reactors, but the Thorium MSR, in its final form, is the holy grail of fission tech. We're pretty far from it though. Even the next iteration planned still won't be able to operate entirely on a Thorium cycle and will need some addition of Uranium.
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Do we know anything about fifth-gen nuclear reactors? At this time we should at least have some idea of what is going to be developed in the future
 
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