Civilian Aviation Technology

Even if it is, I wouldn't really be surprise. It is the first attempt by China to domestically design and manufactured a large civilian aircraft... with time, experience and more cash, the next plane will be alot better.

It was the same as Boeing's first large passengers aircraft, which I doubt is anything near what she churned out nowadays.

the ARJ is more than three years behind schedule already.

rhino123 said:

It is the first attempt by China to domestically design and manufactured a large civilian aircraft.

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Hardly anything on the ARJ21 is designed by China. The body comes from MD-90. The wings come from Antononv. Avionics come from Thales and Honeywell. They even got the cockpit windshields from France.

It is more appropiate to look at the ARJ21 as an attempt to get back the money lost on licensing the MD-90.

Engineer said:

Hardly anything on the ARJ21 is designed by China. The body comes from MD-90. The wings come from Antononv. Avionics come from Thales and Honeywell. They even got the cockpit windshields from France.

It is more appropiate to look at the ARJ21 as an attempt to get back the money lost on licensing the MD-90.

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All the present day airliners use different suppliers around the world. It'd be weird if China didn't do the same thing, considering that the local Chinese vendors for these products don't have worldwide distribution network.

Just look at the Dreamliner and how much of its design and production is done around the world. It's a global industry.

tphuang said:

All the present day airliners use different suppliers around the world.

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Please read "design", it is not just an issue with suppliers. If you can design something, but you chose to let others do it, that's outsourcing. If you can't design it, and you let others do it so you can say "I've designed and build a plane" to your superiors, that's incompetence.

tphuang said:

It'd be weird if China didn't do the same thing, considering that the local Chinese vendors for these products don't have worldwide distribution network.

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No. It is weird for China to do this, considering one of the goals of the ARJ21 project is to build up local design and manufacture capabilities for passenger jets. What local design and manufacture capabilities do you get when you give the R&D money to foreign companies?

If there isn't a worldwide distribution network for Chinese components, then that's an issue that should be addressed. Perhaps the priority should be given to dominating worldwide avionics and aircraft accessory markets first before attempting to sell a civilian airliner.

tphuang said:

Just look at the Dreamliner and how much of its design and production is done around the world. It's a global industry.

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And a lot of the design and production is also done in the United States: avionics, engines, landing gears, etc. What components on the ARJ21 were actually designed in China?

Engineer said:

Hardly anything on the ARJ21 is designed by China. The body comes from MD-90. The wings come from Antononv. Avionics come from Thales and Honeywell. They even got the cockpit windshields from France.

It is more appropiate to look at the ARJ21 as an attempt to get back the money lost on licensing the MD-90.

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I don't think that is a fair assesment. The wing is not design by Antonov. As I understand it Antonov did the peer review but so are 2 other Engineering company. Since there are no Aviation company in China that has built civilian aircraft. So it is only natural to let Antonov to do the peer review. Crobato did a comment about this at one time

As far as the fuselage, Shanghai Aircaft invest so much in building the jig and other production facilities for MAD 80 .So again natural for them to use the existing equipment . Anyway fuselage is just fuselage why spend the time to reinvent the wheel

The decision to use western avionic is probably more to do with commercial consideration and licencing by FAA . Giving future costumer more confidence in ARJ 21. Comac has ambition to sell it overseas.

Maybe when China built ARJ 21 by hundred there will be interest to invest in world class Avionic . And as TP Huang said it cost a lot of money to set up world wide distribution. Make sense to me.

Engineer said:

Please read "design", it is not just an issue with suppliers. If you can design something, but you chose to let others do it, that's outsourcing. If you can't design it, and you let others do it so you can say "I've designed and build a plane" to your superiors, that's incompetence.

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they clearly designed the aircraft, all the major bodies of the plane are designed and manufactured in China. But things like engine, avionics, landing system, auxiliary power, landing gear, the Chinese suppliers are just not up there. Why would they not use Western suppliers?

No. It is weird for China to do this, considering one of the goals of the ARJ21 project is to build up local design and manufacture capabilities for passenger jets. What local design and manufacture capabilities do you get when you give the R&D money to foreign companies?

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they designed the aircraft, but using a lot of foreign parts. It's like a laptop, you are toshiba and you choose all the components from different companies around the world, but you are still piecing it together and find the best assembly. They are also building up production capacity of ARJ-21, which will pave the way for C-919. It's a slow incremental process. You have to learn to walk before you run.

If there isn't a worldwide distribution network for Chinese components, then that's an issue that should be addressed. Perhaps the priority should be given to dominating worldwide avionics and aircraft accessory markets first before attempting to sell a civilian airliner.

And a lot of the design and production is also done in the United States: avionics, engines, landing gears, etc. What components on the ARJ21 were actually designed in China?

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the aircraft itself was designed in China. Sure, it's limited by the production tools from MD-90 and it got some help from Antonov on the wings. It still designed most of the airframe. Why does it matter that design/production of avionics/engine is done in US? Boeing is not doing that. You keep thinking of this as a national pride kind of thing. You have to think from a commercial point of view. If you want to get the best product out there, then you need the best parts. If they Chinese suppliers are not the best out there, then you shouldn't select them, it's that simple.

7月7日报道，继中国商用飞机有限责任公司在新加坡航展上首次展出国产C919宽机身客机模型之后，乌克兰公司可能会帮助中国以其为基础改制出一种200吨级军事运输机。　　

　　《汉和亚洲防务》杂志5月刊援引中国航空工业消息人士的话报道称，国产C919飞机计划于2014年开始飞行试验，2016年向订购方供货，但是客机设计项目并没有结束，中国还计划在其基础上制造200吨级军事运输机，在其研制和生产上，中国航空工业非常期望能够得到乌克兰的支持。

　　在C919发动机问题上，中国已基本确定选择法国斯奈克玛公司研制的LeapX新型发动机。斯奈克玛公司项目负责人证实了汉和报道的这一消息，表示双方都表现出了对发动机合同项目展开谈判的兴趣，而且中国期望对方能够转让生产技术，中方计划在上海组装这种发动机。不过首台LeapX发动机的供应不会早于2014年，因为双方目前还没有就此问题签署任何协议。另外，中国ARJ21客机将会装配通用电气公司生产的发动机。

　　C919设计项目参与者宣布，他们正在研制156座、168座和180座改型方案，并没有设计货运飞机方案。但是类似计划确实存在。汉和方面了解到，中国空军希望在乌克兰的支持下开始研制200吨级军事运输机项目，同时计划在乌方协助下研制国产发动机，或者从乌方得到发动机生产线。汉和及一些航空专家认为，中国空军没有设计大型飞机的经验，在今后5年或6年内使用国产200吨级军事运输机的愿望根本不现实。据中国航空工业消息人士透露，从中国空军已经实现的项目图纸来看，谈论中的这种军事运输机可能与美国的C-17非常接近，在某些方面又与俄罗斯的伊尔-76类似。

　　汉和认为，如果中国国产大型军事运输机的研制项目不能顺利进行，那么中国空军非常可能会把C919作为空警2000新一代预警机的平台。从现行趋势来看，C919的研制步伐明显快于国产200吨级军事运输机项目，而且还不存在选择发动机的问题。另外，中国还将从西方国家那里得到技术支持和信息，毕竟西方国家的预警机主要使用民用飞机，而不是专门的军事运输机为平台，类似做法从美国预警机使用波音707和767客机平台开始，在经济上更为可靠，而且维修费用也会大幅降低。

　　汉和认为，中国非常可能为C919客机选择欧洲发动机，用来替代美国通用电气公司生产的发动机。更为重要的原因在于，只要中国能够独立自主地组装这种发动机，中国就将在C919客机方面拥有百分之百的自主知识产权，这种情况将和国产直9直升机项目非常类似。考虑到C919客机的基本尺寸，一旦使用其机身作为空警2000预警机的平台，机载雷达天线直径就将会缩小，也就是说，雷达搜索距离将会缩短，此前以伊尔-76为平台的空警2000机载相控阵雷达天线直径为12米，在此方面可以说是世界之最。(编译：书山)

This was reported on Bllomberg.com today

General Electric-AVIC Venture Wins Avionics Order for China's C919 Plane
By Rachel Layne - Jul 12, 2010
General Electric Co. and Aviation Industry Corp. won a contract to supply avionics, display and on-board systems for China’s new narrowbody aircraft.
The value of the order from China’s government-controlled Commercial Aircraft Corp., known as Comac, wasn’t disclosed in a statement today.
The deal marks the first foray into the supply of such systems by GE Aviation Systems, part of the world’s biggest jet- engine maker. The companies announced their 50-50 joint venture in November, targeting the single-aisle C919, a 150-seat plane marketed by Comac to compete with the best-selling 737 model from Boeing Co. and Airbus SAS’s A320.
“China is the world’s fastest-growing aviation market and we need to ensure GE and the United States are part of this growth,” John Rice, a GE vice chairman who oversees divisions including GE Aviation, said in the statement.
The GE-AVIC venture plans to compete with companies that include Honeywell International Inc., United Technologies Corp.’s Hamilton Sundstrand and Rockwell Collins Inc. by using so-called open-architecture software, or software that isn’t tied to one manufacturer. The contract will support jobs in the U.S., China and the U.K., GE said.
GE Aviation Systems, based in Evendale, Ohio, sells aviation systems that include cockpit electronics purchased through its 2007 acquisition of Smiths Group Plc’s aerospace unit. The C919 is scheduled to enter service in 2016 with 2,300 aircraft forecast over the next two decades.
To contact the reporter on this story: Rachel Layne in Boston at [email protected].

that Venezuela article here

The China Aviation Industry Corporation (AVIC) has concluded a delivery contract with Venezuela on twenty five multi-purpose Y-12 light aircraft and two helicopters, the China Daily said on Tuesday.

The aircraft will be used by a new airline company to be established by the South American state. An AVIC source denied the Chinese side planned to invest $300 million in the new air carrier.

The contract was concluded on Friday between the AVIC subsidiary the AVIC International Holding Corp and Venezuela's Fundagrial fund and the Sireca company. The financial details of the contract have not been revealed.

The Chinese company will supply other six planes to Venezuela over the next five years.

The contract is expected to enhance aviation ties between the two countries and improve the level of air carrier services in South America.

China is Venezuela's second-largest trading partner, while Venezuela is China's fifth-largest trading partner in South America.

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Venezuela is buying 25 Y-12s and 2 helicopter now + 6 more aircraft at a later time.