Chinese Unmanned Underwater Vehicles (UUV)

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iewgnem

Junior Member
Registered Member
Iron Man said:
Nothing disappeared behind any couches.

Here's a timeline of the USN's development of SSNs:
Nautilus/Seawolf 1954/1957
Skate 1957
Skipjack 1959
Permit 1961
Sturgeon 1967
Los Angeles 1976
688i 1988
Seawolf 1997
Virginia 2004
You could make a case for Seawolf and Virginia sharing the same technology level, but that's still 8 generations of SSN technological advancement.

Meanwhile here's the PLAN's timeline of SSN development:
091 1974
093 2006
093A 2015
093B 2022
Even if you count each of these 093 iterations as entire separate generations of submarine technology (like the 688i), that's still only 4 generations vs USN's 8 or 9 generations.

You would have to believe that the PLAN's submarine was spectacular enough to skip a generation each generation, which is not totally unreasonable, but even if you do you've got something like

Nautilus/Seawolf - 091
Skipjack - 093
Sturgeon - 093A
688i - 093B
Seawolf/Virginia - 095

Lastly, you really have to ask yourself: if 093B already has what the PLAN wants in a state of the art sub, why is there even a 095 program???


Not sure what you mean by advertising, but the 091 and 093 and 093A and 093B dates of commission are fairly well known to everyone, even us military enthusiasts. Nobody knows of any other PLAN sub classes. Hard to "advertise" what you don't actually have, no?


Should I bust out the pom-poms now? This sentence does not have anything to do with anything, much less the timeline of the PLAN's submarine programs. If you want to theorize some unknown classes of PLAN SSNs that nobody knows actually exist, you're welcome to speculate on such things. But in the real life the rest of us just take what we know.
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First let's not pretend you or anyone else knows anything about specs, naming convention nor generation numbering of Chinese SSNs

Tell me, if Type 052 already have what PLAN wants in a destroyer, why is there a Type 055 program?

Also tell me, if you had no access to visuals or specs, if Type 052B was launched in 2004, and China's is building Type 052D today, does this mean China's was waiting for Type 055 to match Flight 2 Burke from the 1990s?

You really should work on your object permanence, because if you think China forgot about SSNs, you might as well believe China's still building Type 052Bs.

Seawolf and Virginias are decdes old, America is just as behind underwater as above water, the reason Americans think they have an edge in SSN is because and only because they can't observe it, because they lack object permenance, like you.
 
I

Iron Man

Major
Registered Member
iewgnem said:
First let's not pretend you or anyone else knows anything about specs, naming convention nor generation numbering of Chinese SSNs

Tell me, if Type 052 already have what PLAN wants in a destroyer, why is there a Type 055 program?
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The Type 052 was backward and obsolete as soon as it came out and not really what the PLAN wanted, which is why there was a 052B, which was also not really what the PLAN wanted, and then a 052C, which was also not really what the PLAN wanted, and then a 052D, which is what the PLAN wanted and why it has been building dozens of them like hotcakes.

iewgnem said:
Also tell me, if you had no access to visuals or specs, if Type 052B was launched in 2004, and China's is building Type 052D today, does this mean China's was waiting for Type 055 to match Flight 2 Burke from the 1990s?
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Non sequitur much? Type 055 is a different class of ship from the 052D and while it shares much of the technology developed for the 052D, almost certainly fulfills a different role from the 052D class, namely air warfare command (and probably land attack and BMD), which is why both are still being built at the same time.

iewgnem said:
You really should work on your object permanence, because if you think China forgot about SSNs, you might as well believe China's still building Type 052Bs.
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Please quote me where I said China "forgot" about SSNs. Go ahead. I said its development pace compared to other aspects of the PLAN has been demonstrably slower, either because of lack of technology, lack of priority, or both. Chinese subs had historically NOT been iterating at even remotely close to the pace that the USN had. A normal non-fanboi person will assume US naval designers were not stupid, and that each new class of subs provided a substantially new level of sub tech advancement. The US has had 8 or 9 of these iterations, while China has had 4ish (at most).

iewgnem said:
Seawolf and Virginias are decdes old, America is just as behind underwater as above water, the reason Americans think they have an edge in SSN is because and only because they can't observe it, because they lack object permenance, like you.
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Behind? LOL what do you mean by behind? Just because a fanboi is salivating about the J-36 and J-50 doesn't mean he should now feel free to start mentally masturbating about every last aspect of the Chinese military. Subs are definitely one area where China has been quite behind and is only now catching up. The US is not behind here; not sure what you're smoking LOL
 
I

iewgnem

Junior Member
Registered Member
Iron Man said:
The Type 052 was backward and obsolete as soon as it came out and not really what the PLAN wanted, which is why there was a 052B, which was also not really what the PLAN wanted, and then a 052C, which was also not really what the PLAN wanted, and then a 052D, which is what the PLAN wanted and why it has been building dozens of them like hotcakes.


Non sequitur much? Type 055 is a different class of ship from the 052D and while it shares much of the technology developed for the 052D, almost certainly fulfills a different role from the 052D class, namely air warfare command (and probably land attack and BMD), which is why both are still being built at the same time.


Please quote me where I said China "forgot" about SSNs. Go ahead. I said its development pace compared to other aspects of the PLAN has been demonstrably slower, either because of lack of technology, lack of priority, or both. Chinese subs had historically NOT been iterating at even remotely close to the pace that the USN had. A normal non-fanboi person will assume US naval designers were not stupid, and that each new class of subs provided a substantially new level of sub tech advancement. The US has had 8 or 9 of these iterations, while China has had 4ish (at most).


Behind? LOL what do you mean by behind? Just because a fanboi is salivating about the J-36 and J-50 doesn't mean he should now feel free to start mentally masturbating about every last aspect of the Chinese military. Subs are definitely one area where China has been quite behind and is only now catching up. The US is not behind here; not sure what you're smoking LOL
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You really do struggle with object permanence don't you?

Tell me, does the 12 bays at Huludao says lack priority, or does any other aspect of every other branch of Chinese military, including UUVs, suggest lack of technology?

You're very welcome to continue to mentally masturbate to the idea that America's decades old subs are still state of the art just because you have no knowledge nor have detected any new Chinese subs. If Americans were smarter they might realize the mismatch between the massive Chinese investment in SSN, rapid progress in less secretive fields and simutenously an apparent lack of new SSNs reflect a critical gap in American intel / detection capability, but that would require object permemenace.

If you forget what Type 052D looks like, you can even mentally masturbate to the idea that Type 052D is just a minor improvement of Type 052B.

At end of they day what America's behind in is the entire national R&D and naval technology apparatus, which in turn is a reflect of American inferiority in human capital. America is behind in every visible military technological field, if you think the lack of visibility in the one field where secrecy is the metric for progress indicate America is not behind, you really should think a bit longer and harder
 
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I

Iron Man

Major
Registered Member
iewgnem said:
You really do struggle with object permanence don't you?

Tell me, does the 12 bays at Huludao says lack priority, or does any other aspect of every other branch of Chinese military, including UUVs, suggest lack of technology?

You're very welcome to continue to mentally masturbate to the idea that America's decades old subs are still state of the art just because you have no knowledge nor have detected any new Chinese subs.
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Did you just decide to ignore where I said "until recently" and "only now"? Those 12 bays signal to me that the PLAN is now satisfied with the level of submarine technology that has been achieved and is willing to start producing subs en masse. I think it's pretty common sense that they would not be willing to mass produce something that is obsolete as soon as it comes out. That said, these construction facilities only came out in the last few years, which means the PLAN did not feel satisfied with their submarine technology "until recently". The 093B is undeniably an interim design, since we have known about the existence of the 095 program for many years. I think in many ways the 093A and 093B are dress rehearsals for the 095, incorporating progressively more advanced technologies that will be present in the 095, which itself will incorporate even more advanced technologies that will bring PLAN subs into the forefront of the state of the art. Note that the Virginias may be dozens of years old but they have now been through five blocks, the rough equivalent of A, B, etc. iterations for the 093 series, so they have continued to iterate since the first Virginia rolled off the blocks. So the PLAN is not really chasing a decades old design here.

iewgnem said:
If you forget what Type 052D looks like, you can even mentally masturbate to the idea that Type 052D is just a minor improvement of Type 052B.
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Go ahead and quote me where I said the 052D is "just a minor improvement" of the Type 052B. BTW, I'm not sure what you mean by object permanence, but you definitely need to work on reading comprehension.
 

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I

iewgnem

Junior Member
Registered Member
Iron Man said:
Did you just decide to ignore where I said "until recently" and "only now"? Those 12 bays signal to me that the PLAN is now satisfied with the level of submarine technology that has been achieved and is willing to start producing subs en masse. I think it's pretty common sense that they would not be willing to mass produce something that is obsolete as soon as it comes out. That said, these construction facilities only came out in the last few years, which means the PLAN did not feel satisfied with their submarine technology "until recently". The 093B is undeniably an interim design, since we have known about the existence of the 095 program for many years. I think in many ways the 093A and 093B are dress rehearsals for the 095, incorporating progressively more advanced technologies that will be present in the 095, which itself will incorporate even more advanced technologies that will bring PLAN subs into the forefront of the state of the art. Note that the Virginias may be dozens of years old but they have now been through five blocks, the rough equivalent of A, B, etc. iterations for the 093 series, so they have continued to iterate since the first Virginia rolled off the blocks. So the PLAN is not really chasing a decades old design here.


Go ahead and quote me where I said the 052D is "just a minor improvement" of the Type 052B. BTW, I'm not sure what you mean by object permanence, but you definitely need to work on reading comprehension.
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You have a very wide definition for "last few years" because it's 2025 and those bays were built in 2017
And you really should stop pretending you know the designations, capability level or quantity of SSNs built from those bays over the last 7 years. All we know is China is building a lot of them, and everything else China has been building a lot of are more advanced than what US fields.

Virginia has gone through multiple blocks just as Burkes has gone through Flight 2, 2A, Tech Insertion and 3, and we know how they stack up against Type 052D and Type 055. At end of the day what America's really behind in is R&D capability, and there is no reason to believe America has any greater R&D capacity to improve Virginias than they have demonstrated in any other naval or defence field.

Lastly let me explain object permanence to you: when that new hull section shows up at Huludao and then disapears, it doesn't mean China stopped building new SSN, when you hear about Type 093B and then don't hear any new models, it does not mean Type 093B is the latest model.
 
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plawolf

plawolf

Lieutenant General
tphuang said:
i would imagine satellites is the best way for them to communicate. As long as they operate close to Chinese shores, they can probably surface or get close to surface enough where they can use some kind of floating communication equipment to TR with satellites. Of course, there is possibly also undersea network that allows them to communicate. Within 1IC, the options are quite abundant I would imagine.
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The whole point of such large UUVs is that they have the range to really get out there. And while large, they are still basically expendable assets and can be spammed as long as you have the resources to make them.

Rather than wasting 095s sailing across the Pacific to launch small volume cruise missile attacks against CONUS targets at high risk, wouldn’t swarms of these make infinitely more sense?

You don’t need massively advanced AI or the need to communicate complicated orders to them. All they need to do is get into position, potentially a randomised area within XXXX miles of the US coast, and just loiter and launch comms buoys at predetermined times to wait for the attack signal.

If you want to spice them up, add some sonar and torpedos with some basic (by modern standards) AI to them and basically just load them with every known NATO military warship signature and tell them to kill anything they encounter that matches a signal from the library that comes within XXX miles once the attack order has been given for self defence and additional chaos. But it may be more efficient to do different variants, some focused on land attack while others anti-ship.

As they say, the best defence is often a good offence. Launch these with the primary goal of tying down the bulk of the USN SSN fleet around CONUS for homeland defence and they will be worth their costs. If they sink some ships and/or blow up something valuable in the US deep rear, well that’s a nice bonus.
 
I

Iron Man

Major
Registered Member
iewgnem said:
You have a very wide definition for "last few years" because it's 2025 and those bays were built in 2017
And you really should stop pretending you know the designations, capability level or quantity of SSNs built from those bays over the last 7 years. All we know is China is building a lot of them, and everything else China has been building a lot of are more advanced than what US fields.

Virginia has gone through multiple blocks just as Burkes has gone through Flight 2, 2A, Tech Insertion and 3, and we know how they stack up against Type 052D and Type 055. At end of the day what America's really behind in is R&D capability, and there is no reason to believe America has any greater R&D capacity to improve Virginias than they have demonstrated in any other naval or defence field.

Lastly let me explain object permanence to you: when that new hull section shows up at Huludao and then disapears, it doesn't mean China stopped building new SSN, when you hear about Type 093B and then don't hear any new models, it does not mean Type 093B is the latest model.
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Again, not sure what you're smoking, but I am pretty sure a bunch of new bays were built recently, which is what I'm referring to. The new facilities built on the reclaimed eastern part of Bohai were completed in 2019, and the reactor fueling facility and new final assembly hall were completed in 2022; IIRC there is even now some new construction going on. Instead of quibbling what you think I mean or should mean by a few years, you should have stepped back and looked at the forest instead of the trees. The Han first came out in 1974, but only in the last few years has submarine production capacity been expanded dramatically. This mirrors in many ways the limited production runs of the PLAN's destroyer classes such as the 051, 052, 052B, etc. And not many examples of the 091 or 093 or even 093A. Both probably due to lack of satisfaction with the results. Starting with the 093B which only came out not even 3 years ago do you see a ramp-up in production, which you could interpret as the PLAN starting to be "happier" with the results. No doubt the flood gates will open fully for the 095. We may not know exactly how many 093/A/Bs are out but many people have a good idea. Maybe you should try reading through the actual 093 thread....
 
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