Chinese UCAV/CCA/flying wing drones (ISR, A2A, A2G)

ougoah

Brigadier
Registered Member
In my opinion, the reason is obvious-fuselage space, a longer fuselage means a longer bomb bay, although it may not be able to hold the JL-1 on the military parade, and it may also accommodate other super heavy ammunition of the PLA.

Yep it is very simple to me as well.

Flying wing designs have a stubbier, shorter aircraft length which cuts into IWB space and available weapons it can accommodate. Diamond fuselage needs a wing for long distance flight, flying wing will need to be huge to have the equal IWB as a cranked wing design.

ISR has no need for IWB of any significance so ISR drones make use of flying wing. Anything with magazine depth would need cranked wing.

CH-7 ISR uses cranked wing despite focusing on being as stealthy as possible - comparable to WZ-x range of ULO therefore, it is possible to get cranked wing to have nearly the same level of ULO as a pure flying wing.

Cranked wing has slightly more drag than flying wing but that's compensated with more lift. It is similar in stealthiness (maybe even better if it can be made that much smaller overall with the same IWB volume and geometry). Cranked wing also has the benefit of extending the range of the aircraft.
 

tamsen_ikard

Captain
Registered Member
GJ-x can't possibly be "H-20".

GJ-x is not strategic ranged and the primary purpose of H-20 is to have strategic range with inflight refueling. This means stealth tankers which China doesn't currently have. US gets around this because they use B-2s against nations like Iran who have no ability to intercept those refuels and the US also has bases dotted around the world where they can have those B-2s fly in without tanker support. China does not have those and Y-20 tankers are not going to survive strategic strike on US.

H-20 would need to be huge to do round trips to US without refuel.

GJ-x also cannot be relied on to perform strategic nuclear strike with human controller nearby. Where is that human going to be?? They can't be ground based, the signals could be disrupted even if the delay is acceptable due to being level cruising and nuclear delivery rather than air superiority like the UADFs. Relying on any narrow AI and air gapping the platform is also not an option at all for something as serious as nuclear delivery. Could fail or falter in far too many ways when even the most minor failure or faltering could spell the possible end for humanity. Not even North Korea would consider this.
You can develop H-20 tanker version and use that as a tanker. So, you don't need the H-20 to be able to do round trip on CONUS. Its probably impossible to build such a plane. You can also develop stealth tanker drones. Even GJ-X could be used a buddy tanker.

But I do think H-20 will have a range atleast equal to the B-52, that is 16K KM ferry range.
 

Syrida2887

New Member
Registered Member
No way this is true. Cause the whole notion of a "strategic bomber" is to perform strategic strikes, that is, nuclear strikes. China just barely got going on a Nuclear triad but on a stopgap tactical Bomber like the H-6. As a Nuclear power equal to Russia and US, they also want a strategic bomber with the range and payload capacity to strike adversaries on the other side of the globe.

And it doesn't take a genius to figure out that a drone will never be doing nuclear strikes. So, you need a manned Bomber with the range and payload capacity to be able to strike US mainland.

China might have given up on the JH-X project, a tactical stealth Bomber and likely some drone will replace it. China will likely use GJ-X on conventional strike missions in the second island chain and possibly even Hawaii. But in order to reach CONUS they will need a bigger bomber.
In my opinion, the role of H-6N is not a stopgap measure, but a special deterrent tool for mounting super-heavy ammunition, which is used to mount air-launched long-range nuclear missiles. Completely canceling the design of the bomb bay can accommodate more internal oil, which is enough to support intercontinental strikes.
 

ACuriousPLAFan

Brigadier
Registered Member
As for the moral qualms regarding the use of drones for nuclear deterrence, this is a non-argument. A human would be controlling these drones on long-range missions and certainly be making the decision to use its weapons. Even if AI is to be incorporated into its flight control system, a sortie as critical as nuclear deterrence would almost definitely involve humans in both the flight and targeting decision aspects of the mission.

Sorry, but no.

Question 1 - Without the H-20 (or any manned aircraft with sufficient endurance), where would the human controllers even control the GJ-X from while still maintaining uninterrupted, reliable connection between the manned and unmanned elements?

Question 2 - Forgot about the S-70 incident over Ukraine? That S-70 lost contact with ground controllers during an operational test flight, forcing a Su-57 to shot it down after several failed attempts at reestablishing control with the drone as it was flying into Ukraine.

What if the same happens to a GJ-X carrying nuclear-tipped missiles during a deterrence patrol (whether that be from communication faults, or getting hacked through cyberwarfare (similar to the RQ-170 incident over Iran), or something else?)

Even with significant (if not full) AI-directed autonomous capability integrated into the GJ-X - What if any of the aforementioned possibilities occurred, and that the onboard AI assumed that the worst has happened (e.g. command aircraft has been downed/lost to enemy fire, if not the ground-based command post has been wiped out), and decided to conduct nuclear strikes on its own without prior authorization from humans? Hell - What if the onboard AI itself with controls over the nuclear missile release went rogue?

The thing is - Do you fully trust the AI to fly people safely from point A to point B? If not, then why would you trust AI to carry what could be the flashpoint that leads to nuclear doomsday on Earth?

In short, I see no justification to build a manned flying-wing-type bomber in the context of the GJ-X (if the GJ-X is indeed what this forum speculates it to be). With the money and human capital required of such an arguably-redundant project, the PLAAF could add many more GJ-Xs to its arsenal; this could mean a critical numerical advantage over the B-21/B-2 that would have profound impact on the military calculus of the 1/2/3IC/Asia-Pacific in general.

Having both manned H-20 and unmanned GJ-X with largely similar planform configurations (or with some deviations/variations) is certainly not mutually exclusive of one another.

Range and payload capacity aside - There's the factor where both the manned and unmanned elements share largely similar RCS category/scale, meaning enhanced survivability for the manned element in a contested/hostile environment. We've already seen the UADFs with largely similar planforms as the J-36 and J-XDS - I don't see how the same couldn't be achieved with the H-20 and GJ-X here.

There's also the point, similar to how some have already suggested above - The GJ-X, thanks to it being unmanned (and thus, should be reasonably cheaper to procure and operate) could have a tanker variant, which would enable mid-air refueling of other GJ-Xs (if not also the H-20s) during strike missions that are well past 2IC.
 
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Blitzo

General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
Those large grey areas all around the plane, could they be placements for an 360 degree PAR? Maybe this is some sort of stealthy AWACS platform.

It is far more likely that it is just a two tone paint scheme.

The idea of a conformal radar system that achieves 360 coverage isn't unreasonable itself, but if you actually look at where the grey colour exists, and if you assume that it delineates where the radar array is based on the fuselage, it just wouldn't be structurally viable at all.


8 modern UAVs? There's actually a lot more.

GJ-11/21 (or whatever the folding wing naval variant of GJ-11 is)
CH-7
WZ-8
WZ-9
UADF Type A
UADF Type B
CCA 1
CCA 2
CCA 3
unknown UADF/CCA that wasn't shown
GH-xx
WZ-xx

And don't forget whatever this is (much smaller than GJ-xx but similar configuration)
View attachment 162846


Yes a few of those may not be in active service yet (GJ-xx, WZ-xx and if PLA ever went with CH-7) but there are far more advanced UAVs that are research and tender only. Far more than 8 active advanced UAVs and more than 20 types of heavy advanced UAVs flown. This is several times more than the rest of the world combined.

As far as "modern UAVs" go, only aircraft that are intended for service or in service, and which are characterized by relatively more sophisticated capabilities/roles, should be included.

CH-7 isn't intended for PLA service as far as we know, and WZ-8 while it fulfills a unique role is not actually that sophisticated (a rocket propelled high speed recon UAV is actually somewhat primitive).

And some of the simpler CCA designs may also not be quite that impressive technologically either.
 

AndrewS

Brigadier
Registered Member
Hot take: the H-20 project has been cancelled, is completely different from what everyone expected, or evolved into the GJ-X project.

The GJ-X could in theory do everything the B-21 or a notional flying-wing H-20 could do but cheaper and without the risk of losing the crew. Being cheaper and arguably less sophisticated than the B-21/H-20 could allow the PLAAF to scale the production and deployment of these drones. Plus, not having a space dedicated to a cockpit could theoretically imply a larger fuel or weapons capacity compared to a B-21-sized aircraft.

As for the moral qualms regarding the use of drones for nuclear deterrence, this is a non-argument. A human would be controlling these drones on long-range missions and certainly be making the decision to use its weapons. Even if AI is to be incorporated into its flight control system, a sortie as critical as nuclear deterrence would almost definitely involve humans in both the flight and targeting decision aspects of the mission.

In short, I see no justification to build a manned flying-wing-type bomber in the context of the GJ-X (if the GJ-X is indeed what this forum speculates it to be). With the money and human capital required of such an arguably-redundant project, the PLAAF could add many more GJ-Xs to its arsenal; this could mean a critical numerical advantage over the B-21/B-2 that would have profound impact on the military calculus of the 1/2/3IC/Asia-Pacific in general.

The only thing that points to an active H-20 project has been the rumor put forth by the usual suspects on Weibo, although - if true - they could mean that the H-20 has evolved into something completely different from the subsonic flying wing that everyone had been expecting.

I recall that for the B-21, the USAF stated there was a 5% difference between manned and unmanned.
But for a penetrating bomber (which has to operate by itself), you really want a pilot there in case.

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In comparison, for the Chinese, within the 1IC and 2IC, we can see that the goal is actually air-sea superiority.

There are barely any suitable targets in the 2IC, just a few carriers and airbases.
So there isn't actually a need for large numbers of Chinese stealth bombers (GJ-X or H-20)

It would be better to build more J-36, UADFs and aircraft carriers (with airplanes) instead.
And given the large number of manned aircraft available, they can control the GJ-X, which would most likely be conducting standoff strike missions.

Note that the target set in the 2IC is approximately 3000-4000km from mainland China.
This can be covered with a the equivalent of a B-21 or H-6 sized bomber. So call it 2 engines with a 4000km range and 9-12tonnes of payload.

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Then you've got Hawaii on the 3IC which is 8000km from mainland China.
Seattle and San Diego are around 10000-11000km

For this, I expect you would need the H-20 to be manned as it is operating independently, have 4 engines, and be twice the size
 
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ougoah

Brigadier
Registered Member
While we were all pigeonholing our thoughts towards various anti-surface/ship roles based on the assumed GJ-x designation, we haven't stopped to consider multirole use.

Cranked wings allow for longer fuselage and generally means two things; 1. longer range and loiter time, 2. longer weapons bay vs the same wingspan pure flying wing.

With PLAAF being so heavily networked for CEC, they could quite easily have simply made an unmanned heavy multirole aircraft. Rather than going B-52 arsenal ship that is capable of dropping air to air missiles, why not have ULO heavies that perform A2A as well? You're not imparting the same kinetic energy or getting into closer ranged fights in the 100km - 20km window. The stealth would really allow you to flank if you have dozens of these heavy arsenal aircraft that can launch PL-17s 100km from the flank of targeted formations, or even fly closer towards valuable targets like tankers and AWACS.

Even 200km of target for PL-17 is well within NEZ. This thing looks like it can easily carry 6x PL-17s.

At the moment, nothing known in PLAAF inventory can carry PL-17 internally until J-36. This could be a seriously capable air to air platform. There is value in a 2x WS-10 powered unmanned, tailless ULO combat drone. You're definitely not limited to performing ISR, air to ground/ anti-ship.

Yes you're not supersonic which means losing a lot of value for A2A but you're ULO and you carry seriously long ranged air to air weapons that make PL-15 seem short legged. This more than makes up for a subsonic speed.

Before J-XD/J-50 and J-36, PLAAF has no tailless air to air platform. Why not bring that capability to this platform when it clearly has the ULO advantage and the space for carrying PL-17s internally.
 
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