Chinese UCAV/CCA/flying wing drones (ISR, A2A, A2G) thread

[sunnymaxi]

that does not make much sense. How do you make an "advanced derivative of WS-20 with lower bypass ratio"? Where exactly is this engine? If H-20 is set to fly soon, this engine better be in production somewhere already.

sir this actual story is,

it is a medium bypass ratio engine designed by AECC Sichuan. bypass ratio will be around 4 or 5 so they consider it high bypass.. it will be actually medium bypass.. here is the tender announcement from 2022..



then we saw this test flight of an unknown engine in 2023..

Engine dimension indicate medium bypass ratio engine. either WS-10 or WS-15 variant. China don't have any application for this type engine other than large stealth bomber like H-20 ..

 

[dingyibvs]

This isn't WWII anymore; bombers don't fly in the middle of the formation. They launch standoff munitions from far away while the fighters ensure nobody gets close enough to target them. That is to say, supersonic fighters are way out in front while subsonic bombers hang back with the support assets. Being slow is fine when you're last in and first out.

But you were talking about this aircraft being in the very front.



Being slow doesn't work so well when you're first in and last out.

Is that really how strike packages work now? How far in front do the fighters fly? What if the bombers are flanked?

 

[AndrewS]

Any low frequency radar should do the trick, I would think, the downside is that they aren't accurate enough for missile guidance

My understanding is that low frequency radars are still effective against smaller control surfaces like canards and rudders.

But not against a flat flying wing

 

[Blitzo]

I doubt WS-10 would make the cut, its a antiquated engine with crappy fuel efficiency. As you mentioned this is a expensive asset with strategic importance, as such IMO it should deserve the best the Chinese aviation industry can offer. In this case likely 2 of whatever high bypass turbofan H-20 is using.

Two WS-10 likely won't be enough to power such a large aircraft, I expect this drone to be in a similar weight class as the B-21. ISR equipments alone could weigh several tons along with all the comms, ELINT equipment, possibly a decently large nose/leading edge radar if it can act as a forward sensing node, the overall payload could be quite heavy. Also this aircraft is probably mostly solid with very little free space as most of it would be fuel granting it a very high fuel percentage but also making it extremely heavy when fully fueled. WS-10s likely can't offer the required electrical capacity and cooling capacity to fully utilize the aforementioned electronics onboard.

High BPR turbofans also have much lower thermal signature than low BPR ones and coupled with advanced exhaust designs could seriously enchance survivability especially considering this is a extremely expensive platform meant to operate in hostile airspace.

Modern WS-10 variants are fairly modern and capable.

Non AB versions would be far from inappropriate for a UAV like this. Two non AB WS-10a them for a UAV of this would be fairly plausible and rational.

In theory a higher BPR engine could be better, but the time and effort needed to develop it for this airframe footprint would be immense.

A non AB WS-10 would essentially be a more modern incarnation of F118, of which four sets powers the B-2, and one set powers the U-2.

 

[Wrought]

Is that really how strike packages work now? How far in front do the fighters fly? What if the bombers are flanked?

The fighters screen ahead as far as they need to, depending on what kind of threat is anticipated.

And flanked by what invisible aircraft, spawning out of what invisible airbases? If you let yourself get flanked somehow, then your domain awareness screwed up big time. Not saying it can't happen, but that's why AEW&C exists.

 

[tphuang]

sir this actual story is,

it is a medium bypass ratio engine designed by AECC Sichuan. bypass ratio will be around 4 or 5 so they consider it high bypass.. it will be actually medium bypass.. here is the tender announcement from 2022..
then we saw this test flight of an unknown engine in 2023..

Engine dimension indicate medium bypass ratio engine. either WS-10 or WS-15 variant. China don't have any application for this type engine other than large stealth bomber like H-20 ..

That seems to still be too large for this aircraft, which I would imagine is quite thin. Also, doesn't fit the timeline



This is a very interesting graph if true. Such a large wing is going to be a beast for range and high power antenna. Take the human related stuff out of this and the range and patrol time is going to be very impressive.

 

[AndrewJ]

Any low frequency radar should do the trick, I would think, the downside is that they aren't accurate enough for missile guidance

My understanding is that low frequency radars are still effective against smaller control surfaces like canards and rudders.

But not against a flat flying wing

Recently, China officially claimed that its latest UHF/VHF radars are already capable to detect, aim, and guide SAM to aerial super stealth targets in a quick loop. It's called JY-27V, which solved the traditional issue that VHF can't aim & lack of precision, according to its Manufacturer CETC.

So, forget about low freq radars can't achieve weapon-level tracking and guidance.

Manufacturer claims on CCTV:

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[Tomboy]

A non AB WS-10 would essentially be a more modern incarnation of F118, of which four sets powers the B-2, and one set powers the U-2.

Neither of them has good range and both are obsolete platforms. China already has a medium-high bypass turbofan perfect for this job why still use old technology? Even a turbofan with a moderate bypass ratio(5-6) could achieve up to 30-40 percent better TSFC than low bypass turbofans, that directly translates to 30-40 percent better range via Breguet range equation. The latest US HALE/Stealth ISR platforms all use advanced geared turbofans like TFE731 in the RQ-170, moderate bypass turbofan AE3007 in the latest RQ-4B for a good reason, China shouldn't fall behind just because to save a penny on their most advanced platforms.

 

[Blitzo]

Neither of them has good range and both are obsolete platforms. China already has a medium-high bypass turbofan perfect for this job why still use old technology? Even a turbofan with a moderate bypass ratio(5-6) could achieve up to 30-40 percent better TSFC than low bypass turbofans, that directly translates to 30-40 percent better range via Breguet range equation. The latest US HALE/Stealth ISR platforms all use advanced geared turbofans like TFE731 in the RQ-170, moderate bypass turbofan AE3007 in the latest RQ-4B for a good reason, China shouldn't fall behind just because to save a penny on their most advanced platforms.

For manned aircraft of their respective weight classes and planforms, their range is quite good.

Which medium bypass turbofan does china have which is available and appropriate for a UAV like this?

Think not only in terms of technological maturity, but also in terms of cross sectional footprint, and also thrust.
Keep in mind this UAV very well may have a MTOW in excess of 60t.

For two WS-10 variants, they are likely to at least able to power this aircraft with two engines.

I am not aware of a medium bypass engine they have available that is of sufficient thrust class to enable propulsion with two engines sets (let alone one)

 

[Tomboy]

For manned aircraft of their respective weight classes and planforms, their range is quite good.

Which medium bypass turbofan does china have which is available and appropriate for a UAV like this?

Think not only in terms of technological maturity, but also in terms of cross sectional footprint, and also thrust.
Keep in mind this UAV very well may have a MTOW in excess of 60t.

That medium bypass engine on the Il-76 testbed was spotted in 2023(assuming it even was the first test flight) if I remember correctly, it's foreseeable that engine could be certified and in LRIP by now considering most engines really only take 1-2 years between first flight and certification(ie. GE90 took 14 months only from first flight to full certification and thats commercial as well with all the FAA delays and emission/noise standards that probably doesn't matter for military engines). Especially considering that H-20 is due to take first flight in the next 18 months by the latest. As for engine cross sectional footprint, the testbed has tiny D-30KP engines with fan diameter of only ~1.05m judging by the test engine's size it could have a diameter of ~1.5m or so. It's quite likely it is small enough to be fitted into a UAV of this size.

Take B-21 as an example, it uses two PW-9000 engines likely with similar dimensions and thrust as that new engine and it could fit into the "thinner" part of the fuselage beside the cockpit and behind the intake(Where you can see a small hump). It could have two engines mounted close together sharing a large central intake as a potential configuration due to the lack of a cockpit. This UAV with a likely MTOW similar to the B-21 is more easily powered by two 120kN class H-20 engines than two non-AB WS-10s with ~90kN each IMO.