Chinese UCAV/CCA/flying wing drones (ISR, A2A, A2G) thread

[Kejora]

 

[Wrought]

You're correct if you're thinking of using this in a traditional AWACS role, with the advent of the J-36 I think we need to try to reimagine air combat. What if this aircraft is actually meant to be the spearhead of an assault, staying in front of an attack group? Its primary purpose would then be as the eyes in front, with long range but low explosives munitions it would be used against enemy AWACS and ground based radars. Without them enemies would need to come closer to take it down, but then they'd come within range of the rest of the attack group following behind, with long range missiles of their own guided by this UAV. While undoubtedly expensive for an UAV, it would be much more expendable than an actual AWACS. So if an enemy aircraft does get through and shoot it down it may not be as much of a loss as say a 6th gen fighter or perhaps even a F-35 when you take into consideration the likely pilot loss.

How would you even have a subsonic spearhead for supersonic fighters lol. Is everyone supposed to fly in circles behind it as it slowly inches towards the enemy? Abandon one every time they head back to base?

 

[dingyibvs]

Well, I don't see this as an AWACS, but rather an air to surface ISR aircraft.

As for an aircraft like this being the spearhead of an assault, I doubt it.

This airframe is oriented for endurance and range.
If you want a UAV design to spearhead an assault you'll want something that is somewhat less optimized for endurance and more on kinematic performance, air to air sensor configuration and more oriented for weapons carriage.



Now, I'm actually a big believer in the "UAV-ification" and "flying-wing-ification" of everything, but this aircraft just doesn't make sense as a weapons platform or a forward positioned "spearhead" type of UCAV/UAV.


If anything, people should be celebrating the emergence of an uber large, highly specialized strategic ISR stealthy UAV. This is exactly the type of aircraft that the PLA has been missing, which can enable a robust, 2nd island chain surface surveillance and BDA capability that is so vital to enabling long range anti ship and anti surface fires. Such a capability is many times more significant and important than such a platform being able to fire a few missiles or something.
Instead, being optimized for sensors, networking, endurance, range and stealth, is exactly what the PLA needs.

Yeah that makes sense. I think as a pure ISR platform it wouldn't make much sense for it to carry much if any munitions.

How would you even have a subsonic spearhead for supersonic fighters lol. Is everyone supposed to fly in circles behind it as it slowly inches towards the enemy? Abandon one every time they head back to base?

It would be a strike force, so it would be followed by subsonic bombers, with the fighters acting as escort.

 

[tphuang]

If anything, people should be celebrating the emergence of an uber large, highly specialized strategic ISR stealthy UAV. This is exactly the type of aircraft that the PLA has been missing, which can enable a robust, 2nd island chain surface surveillance and BDA capability that is so vital to enabling long range anti ship and anti surface fires. Such a capability is many times more significant and important than such a platform being able to fire a few missiles or something.
Instead, being optimized for sensors, networking, endurance, range and stealth, is exactly what the PLA needs.

In fact, this UAV (if it does join service in significant numbers) is more capable in terms of range & sensor/EW installations than I had expected. That huge wing will be able to carry a lot of advanced RF antenna for wide range of applications.

I doubt WS-10 would make the cut, its a antiquated engine with crappy fuel efficiency. As you mentioned this is a expensive asset with strategic importance, as such IMO it should deserve the best the Chinese aviation industry can offer. In this case likely 2 of whatever high bypass turbofan H-20 is using.

Two WS-10 likely won't be enough to power such a large aircraft, I expect this drone to be in a similar weight class as the B-21. ISR equipments alone could weigh several tons along with all the comms, ELINT equipment, possibly a decently large nose/leading edge radar if it can act as a forward sensing node, the overall payload could be quite heavy. Also this aircraft is probably mostly solid with very little free space as most of it would be fuel granting it a very high fuel percentage but also making it extremely heavy when fully fueled. WS-10s likely can't offer the required electrical capacity and cooling capacity to fully utilize the aforementioned electronics onboard.

High BPR turbofans also have much lower thermal signature than low BPR ones and coupled with advanced exhaust designs could seriously enchance survivability especially considering this is a extremely expensive platform meant to operate in hostile airspace.

I don't really see what other option they have. non-afterburner version of WS-10 seem like the obvious choice for large long range stealth aircraft coming in. H-20 will probably have 4 of them.

 

[Wrought]

It would be a strike force, so it would be followed by subsonic bombers, with the fighters acting as escort.

This isn't WWII anymore; bombers don't fly in the middle of the formation. They launch standoff munitions from far away while the fighters ensure nobody gets close enough to target them. That is to say, supersonic fighters are way out in front while subsonic bombers hang back with the support assets. Being slow is fine when you're last in and first out.

But you were talking about this aircraft being in the very front.

What if this aircraft is actually meant to be the spearhead of an assault, staying in front of an attack group?

Being slow doesn't work so well when you're first in and last out.

 

[sunnymaxi]

I don't really see what other option they have. non-afterburner version of WS-10 seem like the obvious choice for large long range stealth aircraft coming in. H-20 will probably have 4 of them.

AECC Sichuan have developed new Medium bypass ratio engine for these type of projects. can be derived from WS-10's core. but they have few options..

1. AECC present ''30 kG/S gas generator'' in Zhuahi air show 2022. they specifically mentioned it can be used to derive Aero engines up to 20 tons.

it has double core structure, 30 kg flow core machine, the maximum thrust is 19-20 tons, and its typical derivative aero engine is EM.

2. WS-15's core, they can even use CJ-1000's core but they won't as usual.

but as we all know that, they always wanted to play safe so most probably WS-10's core to derive medium bypass ratio large engine for strategic bombers.

 

[Tomboy]

I don't really see what other option they have. non-afterburner version of WS-10 seem like the obvious choice for large long range stealth aircraft coming in. H-20 will probably have 4 of them.

We know H-20 will use some sort of high bypass turbofan due to that tender we found back in 2022 calling for verification of a large S duck intake design for HBR turbofans. If I were to guess the engine they'll use is an advanced derivative of WS-20 with lower bypass ratio (Potentially modified with CJ-1000A technology to make it more efficient). IMO this isn't the late 2010s where China didn't have a proper aeroengine industry, so everything has to either use some variant of WS-10 or WS-13. China now has a full lineup of commercial/military turbofans to choose from with the exception of very high thrust turbofans like the GE9X.

 

[secretprojects]

Would not be surprised if the PLA could reliably detect something like the B2 or B21 at the many hundreds of kilometer range (300+).

B-21 is stealthier than B-2, so the two figures must differ.

Also, with what radar can they detect a B-2 at 300+km?

 

[sheogorath]

Also, with what radar can they detect a B-2 at 300+km?

Any low frequency radar should do the trick, I would think, the downside is that they aren't accurate enough for missile guidance

 

[tphuang]

We know H-20 will use some sort of high bypass turbofan due to that tender we found back in 2022 calling for verification of a large S duck intake design for HBR turbofans. If I were to guess the engine they'll use is an advanced derivative of WS-20 with lower bypass ratio (Potentially modified with CJ-1000A technology to make it more efficient). IMO this isn't the late 2010s where China didn't have a proper aeroengine industry, so everything has to either use some variant of WS-10 or WS-13. China now has a full lineup of commercial/military turbofans to choose from with the exception of very high thrust turbofans like the GE9X.

that does not make much sense. How do you make an "advanced derivative of WS-20 with lower bypass ratio"? Where exactly is this engine? If H-20 is set to fly soon, this engine better be in production somewhere already.