Chinese UAV/UCAV development

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vesicles

Colonel
We have not seen anything flown yet --- since 2007. Looks like the exact same model, just bigger. The FC-31 is a real airplane that flies. Its realware vs. vaporware. At least we have seen Sharp Sword on an airfield.

The entire thing disappearing completely after being shown in air shows, then suddenly reappearing after more than 10 years? Just when Sharp Sword is there and a UCAV craze gripping the Chinese aeronautical industry, I would think the timing is convenient.

The UCAV gained a lot of coverage between 2007 to 2011.

This isn't even the first time it showed up in this forums.

https://www.sinodefenceforum.com/j-20-the-new-generation-fighter.t4260/page-33

Other pics from the past.

View attachment 47159 View attachment 47160



There is one suspicious picture I need to mention...


View attachment 47161

I like to know if "J-911C" rings a bell to you?

Sorry, but I’m still not following how you can make a connection between the sudden reappearance of the plane and the potential failure of the project... It makes no sense to me.

The common logic dictates that they had done a good job of keeping it a secret during the development phase. Then they now proudly show it off when it’s all done.

I would understand if you question the legitimacy of the project. I wouls accept your logic if you may think that the whole thing is fake and they simply came up with a wooden model. It makes sense that we hadn’t seen this plane at all because they could never get to fly. So they made a wooden model to mess with people. Although highly unlikely, I understand such logic.

However, you are saying that the project is real but just not yet successful? So why are they showing it now? Getting outside help? But from whom? This is a potential 6th gen fighter tech/concept. Except the US, no one else can afford it. And no one else, certainly none of China’s traditional allies, is even thinking about such concept. According to the article cited by Dannhill, even the US is not seriously looking at this kind of thing. So from whom do you think China is expecting the help?

Like I said above, this is a brand new technology. Based on how the Chinese, especially the PLA, usually do things, it is most likely that the project is progressing smoothly to a stage where they feel comfortable showing off.
 

Tam

Brigadier
Registered Member
Disappearing after 10 years and suddenly reappearing later. That sounds suspicious to me. Also secret projects are not shown in expos, but unaccepted by the PLA projects are, and things shown in expos are export material.

In any case, if people want to look at the underside and how the intake of the Anjian looks like:


11j41g9.jpg

Of all things, a photograph posted to this forum nine years ago.
 

AssassinsMace

Lieutenant General
Maybe now because of rumored hypersonic technological advancement? The Business Insider story was the first I heard of this news today. I remember when it took two or three years before a Western media source would catch up to what's going on in China. I'm not surprised by so-called dead projects coming back to life. Remember the DF-41 was suppose to be dead too. So don't write off the JH-XX just yet.
 

SinoSoldier

Colonel
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has made some further comments regarding the Sharp Sword and Dark Sword programs:
暗剑是无人僚机主要配合有人战机参与制空权夺取 利剑是无人攻击机 主要参与对面攻击。。。。。。
这两现在都属于还早得很的阶段,但是代表了未来的技术发展。
a15.gif

Rough translation (please correct if inaccurate)
  • Dark Sword is an air-to-air UAV that cooperates with manned fighters for the purpose of air defense
  • Sharp Sword is an air-to-ground UAV
  • Both of these projects are still in the early stage, but represent the future direction of technological development/advancement
=====

My own comments:

His claim that the Sharp Sword is still in the early stages seem to contract what is suggested by the appearance of the official Sharp Sword model - an indicator that a project is nearing mass production and/or deployment (see the Z-20 for an example). Some well-known military bloggers such as "草根设计师-CAD" and HuiTong are also claiming that the Sharp Sword (or whatever became of it) is nearing mass production. Thus, I'm not sure of what Pb meant by the Sharp Sword being in its nascent stages, but we'll have to wait and see.

Does anybody know how credible "fr6" from FYJS is?
 

ougoah

Brigadier
Registered Member
The intake anomaly can be explained by the photograph being taken close to the plane itself (within a handful of metres) more or less directly facing the side of the intake, if not taken slightly behind this point. This would mean the opposite edges will not be visible as we see in the photo. At this point in space, the camera can pick up the left stabiliser as shown. It is a real life perspective shot of a long plane and taken close enough to make the effect of perspective dramatic enough to seem strange to one who commonly views 2D illustrations where one stabiliser perfectly covers the other which is an impossibility in 3D space when viewed from this position.
 

ougoah

Brigadier
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has made some further comments regarding the Sharp Sword and Dark Sword programs:


Rough translation (please correct if inaccurate)
  • Dark Sword is an air-to-air UAV that cooperates with manned fighters for the purpose of air defense
  • Sharp Sword is an air-to-ground UAV
  • Both of these projects are still in the early stage, but represent the future direction of technological development/advancement
=====

My own comments:

His claim that the Sharp Sword is still in the early stages seem to contract what is suggested by the appearance of the official Sharp Sword model - an indicator that a project is nearing mass production and/or deployment (see the Z-20 for an example). Some well-known military bloggers such as "草根设计师-CAD" and HuiTong are also claiming that the Sharp Sword (or whatever became of it) is nearing mass production. Thus, I'm not sure of what Pb meant by the Sharp Sword being in its nascent stages, but we'll have to wait and see.

Does anybody know how credible "fr6" from FYJS is?

Could you sum up what fr6 has been claiming?
 

Blitzo

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
Disappearing after 10 years and suddenly reappearing later. That sounds suspicious to me. Also secret projects are not shown in expos, but unaccepted by the PLA projects are, and things shown in expos are export material.

In any case, if people want to look at the underside and how the intake of the Anjian looks like:


View attachment 47173

Of all things, a photograph posted to this forum nine years ago.

It's certainly unusual, but not necessarily suspicious.


When the Dark Sword first appeared some ten years or so ago, it was definitely a curious thing. Lots of us suspected if it was just a concept, a paper plane.

The fact that it then disappeared for so long without any photos or rumours about it being in development is not necessarily suspicious -- it could just mean SAC decided to pursue it internally in a subdued or even clandestine manner. Perhaps the PLA had even picked up on it and decided to do feasibility studies and further R&D into the concept, knowing that it would likely be many years until such a project reached any fruition that would present any kind of viable operational capability. It would be quite reasonable for the concept to go "missing" if that was the case.


Having the concept reappear in the form of a full size mock up -- well, that isn't suspicious either. Certainly unusual and a surprise, but not suspicious. If they have been doing R&D into the concept, the ducks might be lined up in a good enough row that the project might be moving to a next stage, and the mock up could be related to that. Overall, disappearing for ten years and then reappearing isn't too much of an issue.



As for "unaccepted PLA projects shown at airshows" -- well, not sort of, but not really.

Yilong/pterodactyl/GJ-1 was first shown at Zhuhai before it entered service with the PLA.
Models of the first prototype of Soaring Dragon UAV, as well as the 611 CAC global hawk like drone, were both shown at airshows before emerging in real forms.
We had small scale models of both Sharp Sword UCAV and FC-31 ("F-60") at one of those UAV tournaments around 2011 or 2012, be shown off, before both of those eventually made debuts in full size forms.

So IMO there are certainly some products at airshows and expos which are reflective of PLA rejection. But there are also some projects and concepts that may actually end up being developed and pursued and eventually enter PLA service.
Certainly, quite a few of the UAV concepts and projects shown from 2006-2010 seemed to have emerged from plastic into full sized flying platforms, some of which are in service in some form.


It's not stretching the imagination too much to argue that it would be reasonable for Dark Sword to have followed a similar trend, but over a longer term.
 

Blitzo

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Maybe now because of rumored hypersonic technological advancement? The Business Insider story was the first I heard of this news today. I remember when it took two or three years before a Western media source would catch up to what's going on in China. I'm not surprised by so-called dead projects coming back to life. Remember the DF-41 was suppose to be dead too. So don't write off the JH-XX just yet.

I don't see what Dark Sword's reappearance has to do with hypersonic advancement.


There were always some silly rumours that Dark Sword was meant to be hypersonic, but I think a quick glance at it is enough to suggest it would not be.
 

SinoSoldier

Colonel
Could you sum up what fr6 has been claiming?

His posts are too cryptic, but I'll post them here for anyone wishing to contribute.
不是暗剑那个早就作古的模型,是一种无人隐身BOOMER。放在革命老区生产。已经立项了。
He seems to be talking about an unmanned bomber project. (
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对了,这个东西项目代号很西方化的。 M Y 听起来很有威慑力。也很贴合实际用途。601现在在新飞机上很舍得用各种高大上的技术来彰显其前瞻性。不管新技术新设备有没有经过试验机实际验证试飞,只要技术指标看起来足够高大上。就能上项目占位置。所以很多单位都满心欢喜的准备在这个型号上实现新东西的首次装机实用呢。等于拿国家的正式经费和试飞系统来做自己的实验了。
He now claims that the Dark Sword UCAV project has been shelved and a new project called MY is under development. He talks about SAC's attempts to explore new technology. (
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Q: 可以在安顺等着他来试飞了,到时候就能目睹真容了!

fr6: 安顺不是老区的………
Another user asks him about the unmanned bomber. FR6 replies saying that it will be produced in the old district of Anshun (?). (
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Q: 我觉得这种转变算是好事吧?
首先第一感觉是他变得不那么保守;

fr6: 这个还得看其本事到底有没有,能不能把控好整体和细节的关系,大量上未充分验证的新东西,一旦某个单位掉链子出纰漏。整个项目就被拖后腿钓鱼。
I have no idea what is said here. (
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Can somebody do us a favor and translate or summarize what fr6 has said? Or better yet, shed some light on his credibility & authority, or lack thereof?
 

Deino

Lieutenant General
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Since the mock up was shown, there are several links posting also this image below which is AFAIK an old PS-job only ... however I cannot find the original one!

Can anyone help?

Deino

SAC Dark Sword - Anjian UCAV - PS AFAIK 2.jpg
 
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