Chinese UAV/UCAV development

Re: New Chinese UAV

speaking of CH-3

basically saying that CH-3 has a start weight of 640 kg, payload of 60 KG, duration of 12 to 15 hours, altitude of 5000 m and range of 2400 km. It says that this can be used for reconnaissance purpose with a surveillance range of 400 km.

Also, says that CH series has an export deal, although not sure with which country.
彩虹3无人机最大航程2400公里 可巡航15小时
2009-09-14 09:38:36　来源: 环球时报(北京)　跟贴 264 条 手机看新闻

核心提示：彩虹-3无人机采用轮式自主式起降、起飞重量640千克、载荷能力60千克、飞行时间12小时～15小时、飞行高度5000米、最远航程2400千米。这一系列的性能指标都表明彩虹无人机达到了同类无人机的国际水平。


环球时报9月14日报道 虽然在国外的飞行试验已经过去了3个多月了，但是在中国航天科技集团公司十一院计划部部长王宏伟的眼前，仍不时浮现出那道美丽的“彩虹”。

5月17日，一个晴朗的日子，天空中不时有白云飘过。由十一院自主研制的彩虹-3无人机在跑道上静静地等候着，准备进行今年以来的第17次飞行。只要这次试验成功，就意味着该院顺利完成了测试任务。

试验场坪上的方舱里，外方操作人员的准备工作已十分娴熟，但中方的试验队员则仍在一旁进行必要的指导。跑道上，摄像人员目不转睛地注视着前方1.5公里处的那道“彩虹”。

不一会，随着发动机的启动，“彩虹-3”张开8米长的“双臂”，像雄鹰一样飞向蓝天。很快，飞机便从摄像机镜头中消失了，技术人员则从监视屏中观察着不断变化的飞行数据。半个小时后，它又划出一道优美的弧线，徐徐降落在跑道上，试验成功了。

试飞任务成功完成，无人机顺利交付用户，上级领导对此给予高度评价，认为这是十一院在无人机产业发展过程中的一个重要里程碑。

的确，无论是试验队员在国外的工作时间，还是彩虹-2和彩虹-3无人机的飞行架次、飞行高度、飞行半径、单次飞行时间、起飞重量等，均创下了该院历史纪录。

十一院是如何凭借技术创新理念在新兴的无人机领域占据一席之地的？许多人感到好奇。2000年，当该院决定进行无人机研发时，除了总设计师石文外，其他人员对研制无人机都没有经验，真是“摸着石头过河”。

该院在几十年的发展过程中，曾承担过我国几乎所有航天型号产品的气动研究试验任务，拥有技术先进、配套齐全的低速、亚跨超、高超声速风洞和电弧加热器、电弧风洞等多座专用试验设备，以及与之配套的先进测控系统。但在当时，它还没有一个真正意义上的型号产品。

“十一院最大的优势就是气动外形设计。这在航空器和航天器的设计中，占有非常重要的位置，而无人机恰恰处在航空航天交融的领域。”该院总体设计部主任欧忠明说。

据悉，无人机最初发展时，在国内并没有引起足够的重视。该院最初研制时也没有清晰的市场定位，只是觉得能够把自身的专业优势发挥出来。等到覆盖了微型、小型、中型无人机理论研究和实验研究后，他们才逐渐确定了市场定位。

在设计理念上，无人机与有人机存在着很大的不同，对十一院研制人员来说，倒少了几分桎梏，可以依托自身的优势进行设计，同时还能够科学地进行成本控制。

一切都是“白手起家”。该院采取了开放式的合作方式，与国内在此领域先行的高校进行合作，将高校的理论优势与航天的系统研发能力相结合，促进了合作共赢。

很快，“彩虹-1”、“彩虹-2”产品问世，深化了研制人员对无人机的认识。不过，这两个型号的无人机都采用弹射的方式起飞，载荷重量和巡航高度均有一定的限制。

到了“彩虹-3”，该院的无人机再次发生了质的变化，不仅在外形上进行了创新，还采用了不少先进的技术，真正成为该院拥有自主知识产权的品牌。

“轮式自主式起降、起飞重量640千克、载荷能力60千克、飞行时间12小时～15小时、飞行高度5000米、最远航程2400千米”，这一系列的性能指标都表明彩虹无人机达到了同类无人机的国际水平。该飞机装有照相、摄像等装置，可作为侦察机使用，监控范围达到方圆400千米，并可携带两枚AR-1型反坦克导弹。

就在彩虹系列无人机研制过程中，该院收到了一份“意外惊喜”。一个有着多年合作关系的老客户，在与他们洽谈项目时偶然问了句“听说你们在搞无人机，不知道进展如何”。该院的研制人员听说后，立即有针对性地向对方进行了介绍。

此后，经过不断交流，使客户对十一院无人机研制的整体实力有了充分的了解。同时，客户也提出了具体的需求，希望双方联合起来进行无人机开发。

“就这样，我们以技术合作而非商业谈判的方式拿下了出口第一单，也是进入市场的第一单。”惊喜之余，王宏伟分析原因，“多年的合作是这次成功的基础，客户对我们的人员、技术及履约能力等都深信不疑。”

2004年，彩虹无人机第一次飞出国门，实现了我国无人机批量出口零的突破。（中国航天报） (本文来源：环球时报 ) 黄治茂

Re: New Chinese UAV

FriedRiceNSpice said:

In a mass saturation attack, no one is going to be able to reload missiles in the middle of combat. So whether a ship has self-replenishment capability or not is a moot point.

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Not many nations have the ability to conduct such mass saturation attacks; you can essentially count them on one hand. And the Chinese at this stage of the game aren't capable of doing so. Not enough long range, high endurance launch platforms is the problem.

Re: New Chinese UAV

Perhaps the moderators could relocate the saturation attack posts into a new thread...

Anyhow, what would constitute a saturation attack? The figure is different for each ship or a group of ships. would a squadron of 24 JH7s, with 96 missiles constitute a saturation attack against certain kinds of targets?

Also, the closer the target is to land, easier it is to perform a saturation attack. Of course itd be harder to mass enough platforms for a target 1500 km from the coast, but it becomes much easier to do that against a target, say, 500 km from the coast. Yes, aircraft carrier can perform strikes over 500 km away but every little bit helps, denying extra range or extra payload helps.

Re: New Chinese UAV

Also, the closer the target is to land, easier it is to perform a saturation attack. Of course itd be harder to mass enough platforms for a target 1500 km from the coast, but it becomes much easier to do that against a target, say, 500 km from the coast.

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The PLA operates hundreds of short range and medium range shore-based anti-ship cruise missiles. They have the capability to deny coastal waters up to about 300-400km to just about any type of naval group.

However, I think Pointblank meant a mass saturation attack as part of an offensive capability, rather than area denial. Currently, neither the PLAN or PLAAF has enough assets to conduct an attack that can overwhelm the defenses of a USN carrier battle group at ranges that can actually threaten a CVBG.

Re: New Chinese UAV

Out in the open seas, without any meaningful airborne radars, PLAN has a poor offensive capability, even though on paper it could gather a vast number of antiship missiles for a single (perhaps not preciselly coordinated) strike.

Coastal launchers do help deny the area up until some 200/300 km, rest of the fleet, with the aid of airborne radar, can increase that to some 400/500 km, but id say the PLANAF has enough resources to conduct saturation attacks (or, more meaningfully, deny access) against a single CBG of average composition up to some 1000 km from the coast.

Naturally, in the real world, a single CBG would not put itself in such situation. Itd always have either additional ships, perhaps additional carrier groups or fighter cover from the nearby USAF bases. Without those, a single CBG is not likely to venture closer than 1000 km from the chinese coast for any prolongued period of time. (fast one time raids with radars off, if strategic situation allows it, are another matter)

Re: New Chinese UAV

The PLAN has greatly improved its long range saturation attack capabilities in recent years, with the mass production of the Type 022 FAC a key factor. Each can carry up to 8 C802/3 AShMs and there have been reports of groups using wolf pack tactics and relying on off-board targeting to engage targets at long range.

At the very least, these things will push the coast AShM screen outwards by several hundred KM, and it will not be a stretch to seem them being used in offensive attacks against enemy forces far out to sea.

These FACs will be particularly effective when teamed up with high-endurance UAVs who can provide the targeting information for them to argument the FAC's own lack of long range sensors.

Re: New Chinese UAV

plawolf said:

The PLAN has greatly improved its long range saturation attack capabilities in recent years, with the mass production of the Type 022 FAC a key factor. Each can carry up to 8 C802/3 AShMs and there have been reports of groups using wolf pack tactics and relying on off-board targeting to engage targets at long range.

At the very least, these things will push the coast AShM screen outwards by several hundred KM, and it will not be a stretch to seem them being used in offensive attacks against enemy forces far out to sea.

These FACs will be particularly effective when teamed up with high-endurance UAVs who can provide the targeting information for them to argument the FAC's own lack of long range sensors.

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But as demonstrated in recent conflicts, FAC's are extremely vulnerable to air attacks... nothing like a pack of F/A-18's armed with Maverick's or even a couple of Seahawk's armed with Hellfire or Penguin missiles to ruin their days. Remember the devastating effectiveness of British Lynx helicopters armed with the Sea Skua missile against Iraqi Navy during Gulf War I. The helicopters alone accounted for the majority of the Iraqi Navy sent to the bottom.

Re: New Chinese UAV

Right, and how are the fighters and helicopter's missiles going to lock on to a stealthy, IR-suppressed, fast moving maneuvering target with point-defense systems? Are they going to come in and go toe to toe with the AK-630 mount?

Re: New Chinese UAV

FriedRiceNSpice said:

In a mass saturation attack, no one is going to be able to reload missiles in the middle of combat. So whether a ship has self-replenishment capability or not is a moot point.

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Who said anything about in the middle of combat? Even being able to replenish the next day makes it a very critical point in such a conflict. Because even though a CBG may use up all/most of its missiles in one engagement, if it can replenish its missile stock the next day or two, then the strategy has failed. You can't send 500 drones out to die every day of the conflict. That's too expensive for anyone. Once, maybe, to chase away a CBG and send a message, its expensive, but worth it. But to send that many every single day of the conflict just to keep the CBG away? Infeasible.

Re: New Chinese UAV

Who said anything about in the middle of combat? Even being able to replenish the next day makes it a very critical point in such a conflict. Because even though a CBG may use up all/most of its missiles in one engagement, if it can replenish its missile stock the next day or two, then the strategy has failed. You can't send 500 drones out to die every day of the conflict. That's too expensive for anyone. Once, maybe, to chase away a CBG and send a message, its expensive, but worth it. But to send that many every single day of the conflict just to keep the CBG away? Infeasible.

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You are right. However, one possible strategy is to send so many at one time that the adversary's defenses are overwhelmed. Such a strategy that would destroy the CVBG, not chase it away. Even if a ship cannot replenish at sea, if you fail to destroy it it will eventually come back into the fight. The capability to replenish underway is definitely very valuable as it helps keep the ship in the fight for longer and cuts down on down time.