Chinese Trainer Aircraft (JL-8, JL-9, JL-10 (L-15), etc.)

johnqh

Junior Member
Re: JL-15 and other trainers

Yes, but the second is also a result of the aircraft redesign.


The question is, how much fuel capacity is lost with the addition of second seat? Because as far I know, the J-7E main fuel tanks are in the wings, in fact the J-7E design increases the fuel capacity respect the previous versions with the addition of the double delta wings, so, your supposition is quite weak. Therefore, the aircraft can be equipped with an in-flight refuelling probe, do you remember? And also, did you noticed than both seats are slightly moved forward thanks to new nose?




Taking as a reference the technician working behind the nose in the background of the picture, is possible estimate the diameter of the nose, which is -again- around 400mm. Its just a little use of descriptive geometry.

Greetings from Perú.

The wing tank is not the magic. Old J7's radius is 400km. J7E is 650km. Even J7E can only be considered as point defense, and only with two short range missiles. JL-9 cannot be better. So-called 2500km ferry range is overly optimistic and definitely with 3 fuel tanks, but you don't expect to do dog fight training with three external fuel tanks, do you?

Regarding mid-range AAM, they take wing points (that means no fuel tanks).

Fire control radar and fire control system requires electricity and adds weight. Further reduce the flight performance.

JL-9 only exists because JJ-7 is worse and there is nothing else.

So, yes, it is "possible", but why? Mig-21 is not a good fighter, even as 1960's standard. No matter how you modify it, J7/JL-9 is still Mig-21 derived. Let it go.
 

zuhe

New Member
Re: JL-15 and other trainers

K-8VB of Bolivia
277822_gd.jpg


0007.jpg

0010.jpg
 
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Miragedriver

Brigadier
Re: JL-15 and other trainers

The wing tank is not the magic. Old J7's radius is 400km. J7E is 650km. Even J7E can only be considered as point defense, and only with two short range missiles. JL-9 cannot be better. So-called 2500km ferry range is overly optimistic and definitely with 3 fuel tanks, but you don't expect to do dog fight training with three external fuel tanks, do you?

Regarding mid-range AAM, they take wing points (that means no fuel tanks).

Fire control radar and fire control system requires electricity and adds weight. Further reduce the flight performance.

JL-9 only exists because JJ-7 is worse and there is nothing else.

So, yes, it is "possible", but why? Mig-21 is not a good fighter, even as 1960's standard. No matter how you modify it, J7/JL-9 is still Mig-21 derived. Let it go.

Agreed! Being from a 3rd world country myself the thought of a fleet of modified J-7s with an actual radom with radar and a chance of BVR missile is a very tempting dream. Especially since they’re inexpensive.
However, the fact remains that they are still a Mig-21 (even with the double delta, more powerful engine, etc.) and they suffer from the same problem all Mig-21s faced, which is short legs. By the time the afterburner gets you going you need to seriously start considering where your going to land, Also, even with all the wonderful bells and whistles the JL-9/J-7 (fighter mix) can give, you must remember that is still a 2nd generation aircraft and therefore subject to those limitations within the flight envelope. Another example of this can be demonstrated with the Mig-23 which is an excellent 3rd generation aircraft, however it confronted 4th generation aircraft and was consistently beat.
I wouldn’t expect other air forces to get all excited about a super J-7 unless you will be in combat with Mirage III, Saab Draken, Delta Dart and F-4 or another Mig-21.
 
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Ian_PD

New Member
Re: JL-15 and other trainers

The wing tank is not the magic. Old J7's radius is 400km. J7E is 650km. Even J7E can only be considered as point defense, and only with two short range missiles. JL-9 cannot be better. So-called 2500km ferry range is overly optimistic and definitely with 3 fuel tanks, but you don't expect to do dog fight training with three external fuel tanks, do you?
And of course it is a point-defence fighter, just like its succesor, the MiG-29, which is also heavy critiziced because its "short legged", 400 kms is enough for countries like Bolivia, who have the Chilean frontier quite close to some of their airbases, like Capitán Oriel Lea Plaza Airport in Tarija.

Regarding mid-range AAM, they take wing points (that means no fuel tanks). Fire control radar and fire control system requires electricity and adds weight. Further reduce the flight performance.
That depends of the radar, the Chilean F-5 Tiger III is a good example of point-defence BVR interceptor, and even have an smaller nose cone than the JL-9. A radar like the Kopyo-M have not such a drastic impact in the performance as you presume, by example, the Kfir CE in service in the Ecuadorian Air Force have a heavely modified nose to employ the ELTA EL/2032 radar, and the performance loss is compensed by its longer range and advanced A2G modes. Modern avionics are smaller and lighter than the older ones, and also consumes less electricity, therefore, the added weight and power consume are not so significative as you indicate.

JL-9 only exists because JJ-7 is worse and there is nothing else.
I don't think so, the JL-9 is a risk-free, quickly available an cheap alternative to the L-15, and if the JL-9 is so bad, why the PLANAF made it its first trainer for carrier operations?

So, yes, it is "possible", but why? Mig-21 is not a good fighter, even as 1960's standard. No matter how you modify it, J7/JL-9 is still Mig-21 derived. Let it go.
As far I remember, we are talking about the J-7E/G and JL-9, both based in the MiG-21 design but not longer a MiG-21, a Mirage 2000 resembles a Mirage III but is not the same aircraft and doesn't have its same flaws. The J-7E/G have a performance superior than the MiG-21, have more power generation and more fuel, a more efficient engine which also can be improved or replaced (with the Klimov RD-33N, by example).

...
However, the fact remains that they are still a Mig-21 (even with the double delta, more powerful engine, etc.) and they suffer from the same problem all Mig-21s faced, which in short legs. By the time the afterburner gets you going you need to seriously start considering where your going to land
Again, that depends of the tactics employed, and that problem is resolved with the in-flight refuelling probe.

Also, even with all the wonderful bells and whistles the JL-9/J-7 (fighter mix) can give, you must remember that is still a 2nd generation aircraft and therefore subject to those limitations within the flight envelope.

I remember than the evaluation of the Pakistan Air Force was quite positive about the F-7MG performance, putting it near to the F-16A, this doesn't mean something?. Even the F-5 have prove their effectiveness against the Mirage 2000, using the proper tactics and an AWACS (or a good ground radar coverage + datalink). I also remember than a PLAAF DATC squadron conserved its J-7Es after the squad leader defeated 3 J-11s in close combat...

Its size is also an advantage, an small RCS + a good jammer can made them a hard target to detect, track and lock with BVR missiles. Tactics gentlemans, not only muscle (or fuel) wins battles.

Greetings from Peru.
 
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Miragedriver

Brigadier
Re: JL-15 and other trainers

As far I remember, we are talking about the J-7E/G and JL-9, both based in the MiG-21 design but not longer a MiG-21, a Mirage 2000 resembles a Mirage III but is not the same aircraft and doesn't have its same flaws.

The Mirage has some of the limitations of its predecessor in that:
1) The Delta wing bleeds off energy and the aircraft looses speed in turns
2) Has short legs like its predecessor

It is also different from its predecessor in that:
1) It has relaxed stability and a leading edge flaps for better maneuverability (no relaxed stability in the J-7)
2) Is made from more composite materials and can handle higher G loads (no composite materials in the J-7)

We can definitively say that the Mirage 2000 is a completely different aircraft than the Mirage III. No mater if you place the same electronics on the Mirage III it will never be as good as a Mirage 2000


I remember than the evaluation of the Pakistan Air Force was quite positive about the F-7MG performance, putting it near to the F-16A, this doesn't mean something?. Even the F-5 have prove their effectiveness against the Mirage 2000, using the proper tactics and an AWACS (or a good ground radar coverage + datalink). I also remember than a PLAAF DATC squadron conserved its J-7Es after the squad leader defeated 3 J-11s in close combat...

Its size is also an advantage, an small RCS + a good jammer can made them a hard target to detect, track and lock with BVR missiles. Tactics gentlemans, not only muscle (or fuel) wins battles.

I can agree that the J-7MG is an excellent dogfighter, and that if it were to get in a fur-ball with an F-16 it could go either way. However, the point I was trying to make is that with all things being equal (AWCA, and onboard fuel) the F-7 will still be at a disadvantage for the following reasons:

1) The radom on the F-7 is smaller than that in the F-16 or the FC-1. Since detection is a direct correlation between the power output and the diameter of the radar receiver. Hence if you have a small receiver your radar will need to output a high amount of energy. The detection range of say an F-16 or and FC-1 will be greater than that of the F-7MG. Early detection means that you get the jump on the enemy.

2) The amount of actual of missiles that can be carried on the aircraft is also limited.

3) F-7 does not have an IRST system.

4) The airframe has limitation of that of a 2nd generation fighter and will be unable to perform the maneuvers of its 4th generation counterparts. It can not compete with the flyby wire and relaxed stability of modern aircraft.

5) The amount of fuel carried is not as great as the F-16 or the FC-1, so if a dogfight persists the favor will tip in the opponents favor.

6) Also, a new radar or a few improvements does not make a MiG-21-93, MiG-21-2000 or a J-7MG a fourth generation fighter only an upgraded second-generation fighter.

The aircraft could be an excellent point defense interceptor, but not much else. Certainly not the backbone of your fighter force. If it is then your air force has more serious problems to worry about.

With all the modification, in the end the aircraft will become either another aircraft or a too expensive modification that no one is going to purchase (or upgrade).


Sorry I digressed from the topic of the JL-9
 
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Blitzo

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
Re: JL-15 and other trainers

^ i want to point out that only the f-16e has irst, jf-17 and f-16c and before do not have irst. And I thought mig-21 (and therefore j-7) were 3rd gen fighters using the western standard? Also I could be wrong, but the latest and last j-7 variants might've benefited from cac's j-10 work and had utilized a small amount of composites.

Edit: nvm, the original mig-21 is considered 2nd gen, while j-7e and onwards and mig-21bis is considered 3rd (wiki)
 
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Miragedriver

Brigadier
Re: JL-15 and other trainers

^ i want to point out that only the f-16e has irst, jf-17 and f-16c and before do not have irst. And I thought mig-21 (and therefore j-7) were 3rd gen fighters using the western standard? Also I could be wrong, but the latest and last j-7 variants might've benefited from cac's j-10 work and had utilized a small amount of composites.

Edit: nvm, the original mig-21 is considered 2nd gen, while j-7e and onwards and mig-21bis is considered 3rd (wiki)

Yes you are correct. I did not mean to imply that the F-16C(and prior versions) or the JF-17 had IRST. Only that the J-7MG did not, and would be at a disadvantage.
 

Ian_PD

New Member
Re: JL-15 and other trainers

The Mirage has some of the limitations of its predecessor in that:
1) The Delta wing bleeds off energy and the aircraft looses speed in turns
Yes but still have a much better instantaneous turn rate than the F-16.

2) Has short legs like its predecessor
Sorry, but this is not true, the Mirage 2000 have an excellent combat radius, in fact the latter variants (and upgrades) can use the oversized drop fuel tank developed for the Mirage 2000N, which allows even more combat range without impact in its payload.

It is also different from its predecessor in that:
1) It has relaxed stability and a leading edge flaps for better maneuverability (no relaxed stability in the J-7)
2) Is made from more composite materials and can handle higher G loads (no composite materials in the J-7)
So? Do not have relaxed stability is an disadvantage? The MiG-29 do not employ that technology and is still more maneuverable than the Mirage 2000 and F-16. Also for the materials, is relevant for combat performance? Having a conventional construction is not a flaw, just a fact.

1) The radom on the F-7 is smaller than that in the F-16 or the FC-1. Since detection is a direct correlation between the power output and the diameter of the radar receiver. Hence if you have a small receiver your radar will need to output a high amount of energy. The detection range of say an F-16 or and FC-1 will be greater than that of the F-7MG. Early detection means that you get the jump on the enemy.
Of course, but the use of the radar implies than you pre-alert the attacked aircraft, and the BVR combat do not only depends of how far you can detect the enemy, in fact there is not even a single BVR kill longer than a 30-40 kms, the paper of Colonel Higby about the reality of BVR combat is quite useful, an quoting him, to make a BVR kill you need NCTR and AWACS; but above all an enemy incapable to defend itself.

2) The amount of actual of missiles that can be carried on the aircraft is also limited.
Is a light fighter you know, if you want more firepower, then pay for it, but not all can pay a MiG-29, a Mirage 2000 or even a JF-17. That's my point, here in South America we have Bolivia and Paraguay as examples of this.

3) F-7 does not have an IRST system.
The F-16 also doesn't have and is still an excellent fighter, the Mirage 2000 can employ its IR missiles (Magic 2 Mk.II and MICA IR) as IRSTs, according with Dassault.

4) The airframe has limitation of that of a 2nd generation fighter and will be unable to perform the maneuvers of its 4th generation counterparts. It can not compete with the flyby wire and relaxed stability of modern aircraft.
The Pakistan Air Force says than the aircraft is comparable to the F-16A in maneuverability, so, can in fact
match an F-16 in that aspect, which is not a great achievement, by the way, but is a good reference.

5) The amount of fuel carried is not as great as the F-16 or the FC-1, so if a dogfight persists the favor will tip in the opponents favor.
The modern air combat doctrine states than if you see first, you must kill first. And that's an advantage for the J-7E, its an small aircraft, with a good jammer (like the Paj-Fa de Thales), and RAM coating can be very hard to detect, as I state before. The fuel is a good point, but the objetive for a short-range interceptor is disrupt the enemy incursion, making a combat-kill or a mission-kill as soon this is detected by the AWACS and/or the CGI network.

6) Also, a new radar or a few improvements does not make a MiG-21-93, MiG-21-2000 or a J-7MG a fourth generation fighter only an upgraded second-generation fighter.
If you can't pay for something better, is that or have nothing, or keep flying 2th generation fighters without any improvement.

The aircraft could be an excellent point defense interceptor, but not much else. Certainly not the backbone of your fighter force. If it is then your air force has more serious problems to worry about.
Precisely, and no more, no less. I repeat, is better than nothing, and a good first-step. because nothing can prevent you to acquire a more capable aircraft later.

With all the modification, in the end the aircraft will become either another aircraft or a too expensive modification that no one is going to purchase (or upgrade).
Why? The modification even exist (the J-7FS) and all what is need is a more capable radar, and sorry, but no matter how much you spend in the JL-9/J-7E, can never cost more than a one of the fighters mentioned in your post.

Greetings from Perú.
 
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Munir

Banned Idiot
Re: JL-15 and other trainers

The mirages 2k delta has indeed high ITR. But when do you need that? Not in BVR. And maybe only in the few first turns in WVR. After that you scream for kinetic energy. Even in 1v1 combat.

That high ITR... With highly agile WVR missiles that seems to change also. First they avoid WVR and if they are in it you have HMS/HMD with smart WVR missiles with multimode seekers to do the job superbly.

A delta indeed has more fuel space, better aerodynamics for high speed and high altitude, lower wingloading etc etc. That drooptank of the m2k is decreasing max speed and max g's. The CFT of the F16 is in every aspect (except dropping during flight) better.

To be rude. The Mirage had its days. Now the Rafale is next generation. There are no nations that buy a new M2k. It is not even in production anymore. And if you have them you pay for it when you ask spare parts and upgrades. I think I prefer Mig29 over the Mirage. And even that one is no longer a frontrunner.
 

Ian_PD

New Member
Re: JL-15 and other trainers

The mirages 2k delta has indeed high ITR. But when do you need that? Not in BVR. And maybe only in the few first turns in WVR. After that you scream for kinetic energy. Even in 1v1 combat.
Of course, but BVR is just the first part of air combat, you can't simply dismiss this advantage just saying "the ITR do not count in BVR combat", because this is only half equation.

That high ITR... With highly agile WVR missiles that seems to change also. First they avoid WVR and if they are in it you have HMS/HMD with smart WVR missiles with multimode seekers to do the job superbly.
False, the current WVR doctrine is quite explicit: "Shoot-first, kill-first", you can't replace performance with a HMS or an agile missile, therefore, than more advantages you have, more chances to obtain the first shoot.

A delta indeed has more fuel space, better aerodynamics for high speed and high altitude, lower wingloading etc etc. That drooptank of the m2k is decreasing max speed and max g's. The CFT of the F16 is in every aspect (except dropping during flight) better.
Having an air combat with the droptanks still attached? Are you kidding, right? The CFT also impacts in the F-16 performance, and its only available for the latest F-16 versions (Block 50 and forward), which represents only an small fraction of the F-16s actually in service.

To be rude. The Mirage had its days. Now the Rafale is next generation. There are no nations that buy a new M2k. It is not even in production anymore. And if you have them you pay for it when you ask spare parts and upgrades. I think I prefer Mig29 over the Mirage. And even that one is no longer a frontrunner.
Obviously the Rafale is better, but the reason than any other nation can't buy brand-new Mirage 2000s is the close of its production line, if Dassault do not close its line after the Greek order, the MMRCA contest in India will have its winner a long time ago, because the initial IAF requirement was MORE Mirage 2000s. Why Dassault close its line? They preferred focus in its best fighter rather than split its resources in two competitive products.

And one more thing: No matter how extensive can be the an F-16 upgrade, it can't never be close to the Rafale technology (specially the early blocks), but any Mirage 2000 can be upgraded almost at the same standard than the Rafale avionics. And that's a fact sir, not a guess.

I think than we can continue this interesting off-topic in an appropriate thread.

Greetings from Perú.
 
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