Chinese Trainer Aircraft (JL-8, JL-9, JL-10 (L-15), etc.)

Re: JL-15 and other trainers

Semi-Lobster said:

The new 06 prototype looks more and more like an actual fighter and less and less than just a trainer. Right now the 06 prototype is probably only a little shorter than the F-5E. I wonder what sort of fire control radar Hongdu hopes to put in that enlarged nose theirs.

Its still pretty expensive though, if Hongdu is trying market this as both a trainer and try to market the L-15 as a light fighter then they will probably need to look into ways to reduce cost as aircraft like the FC-1 are already being marketed to countries looking for affordable fighter aircraft.

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Good point. However, there is potentially a market for countries not facing severe threats from air. Considering L15 a combination of fighter, trainer and attacker, the buyer can build up an entry-level air force from scratch, with minimal operating & maintaining costs too (comparing with a fleet with several types of dedicated planes).

Take Venezuela air force for example, with a couple of air groups of dedicated fighters as its spear tip, it would be reasonable to form the bulk of its tactical fleet with L15 type multiple-role planes, a cost effective solution to efficiently upgrade the force without the risk of triggering regional arm race.

Re: JL-15 and other trainers

EDIATH said:

Good point. However, there is potentially a market for countries not facing severe threats from air. Considering L15 a combination of fighter, trainer and attacker, the buyer can build up an entry-level air force from scratch, with minimal operating & maintaining costs too (comparing with a fleet with several types of dedicated planes).

Take Venezuela air force for example, with a couple of air groups of dedicated fighters as its spear tip, it would be reasonable to form the bulk of its tactical fleet with L15 type multiple-role planes, a cost effective solution to efficiently upgrade the force without the risk of triggering regional arm race.

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Well for an estimated ~$15 million each (and thats the regular variant, a larger, more capable L-15 like the 06 prototype with a combat radar will cost considerably more) you could probably afford to buy FC-1s which would also have a greater payload than the L-15.

Re: JL-15 and other trainers

Semi-Lobster said:

Well for an estimated ~$15 million each (and thats the regular variant, a larger, more capable L-15 like the 06 prototype with a combat radar will cost considerably more) you could probably afford to buy FC-1s which would also have a greater payload than the L-15.

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the US$15 million price tag slapped on per unit of FC-1, not inclusive of other packages, such as weapon and supporting equipments... and I believe it is a price only valid for Pakistan and China because they are the nations involved in the developement of the FC-1 project. However if it is a third country buying this fighter, I believe the price might be higher.

Thus L-15 is still feasible as a fighter option for countries who want a simple multi-role fighter to form the backbone of their air force.

Re: JL-15 and other trainers

rhino123 said:

the US$15 million price tag slapped on per unit of FC-1, not inclusive of other packages, such as weapon and supporting equipments... and I believe it is a price only valid for Pakistan and China because they are the nations involved in the developement of the FC-1 project. However if it is a third country buying this fighter, I believe the price might be higher.

Thus L-15 is still feasible as a fighter option for countries who want a simple multi-role fighter to form the backbone of their air force.

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$15 million is currently the estimated price of the basic L-15 as well (not including an 06 style combat radar). I can imagine the L-15 being marginally cheaper though in the long run compared to the L-15 though. If a country is REALLY looking for a bargain for a light fighter, the JL-9/FTC-2000 is probably a better platform.

Re: JL-15 and other trainers

Semi-Lobster said:

$15 million is currently the estimated price of the basic L-15 as well (not including an 06 style combat radar). I can imagine the L-15 being marginally cheaper though in the long run compared to the L-15 though. If a country is REALLY looking for a bargain for a light fighter, the JL-9/FTC-2000 is probably a better platform.

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I agree. Pakistan recently purchased 42 JF-17 for $800 million (that works out to $19 million a plane). Granted that included parts, equipment and all the fun toys associated with the aircraft. The actual unit price is closer to $15 million+/-. A county which is currently operating a Mig-21 or J-7 will be better off purchasing the FTC-2000 fighter version or the J-7MF (not in production or proto type) due to the simple fact that the ground crews and pilots would have an easier time transitioning to the newer aircraft.
I don’t believe that multi roll aircraft are the way to go; you still need a dedicated interceptor/fighter aircraft and then a larger amount of fighter/ground attack aircraft. The L-15 fighter version may have greater maneuverability than the FTC-2000, but why not buy the J-10 or the less expensive JF-17?
It would be interesting to have a JF-17 and a fighter version of the L-15 in a mock dogfight.

Re: JL-15 and other trainers

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This is about producing JJ-9 trainer for the navy. They also talked about producing JJ-7A (didn't realize that was still in production). But it says that since July, it has delivered 4 set of parts for JJ-9 to GAIC. They also produced more JJ-7A (not sure who the customer is for).

Re: JL-15 and other trainers

tphuang said:

This is about producing JJ-9 trainer for the navy. They also talked about producing JJ-7A (didn't realize that was still in production). But it says that since July, it has delivered 4 set of parts for JJ-9 to GAIC. They also produced more JJ-7A (not sure who the customer is for).

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The JJ-7As might be going to Bangladesh, earlier this month they stated that they were looking for a replacement for their Shenyang F-5 and older FT-7 trainer aircraft (although that would be a bit odd replacing FT-7s with more FT-7s) or maybe to an existing African client. The JJ-9 for the PLAN thought is a very interesting development, a lot of people were speculating that, while useful for land based training, that a single engine trainer would be useless on a carrier and therefore not be cost effective as a 'universal' fit for the PLAN's training needs. I guess they were wrong about that! I'd really like to see a fully operational JJ-9 in PLAN colours!

Re: JL-15 and other trainers

Well, this is a trainer and essentially a MiG-21. There's no space for a second engine and no need for one. I don't see why it would be a problem to make it carrier-capable. It is very light, lighter than the A-4 Skyhawk, and has powerful engines available. I think it would be an excellent trainer for a carrier and if PLAN can't wait for the L-15 then getting this is definitely not a bad idea.

Re: JL-15 and other trainers

sumdud said:

Well, this is a trainer and essentially a MiG-21. There's no space for a second engine and no need for one. I don't see why it would be a problem to make it carrier-capable. It is very light, lighter than the A-4 Skyhawk, and has powerful engines available. I think it would be an excellent trainer for a carrier and if PLAN can't wait for the L-15 then getting this is definitely not a bad idea.

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Generally many navies feel 'safer' with a twin engine aircraft, complete engine failure in the middle of the ocean is not an ideal situation to be in but you are correct, many countries, such as the US's T-45 Goshawks are single engine

Re: JL-15 and other trainers

I think it’s a great way to get your pilots trained for carrier landings while the JL-15 (single seat version is fine tuned). I would like to see the new features on the JL-9, such as the strengthened landing gears and an arresting hook.
Besides loosing a JL-9 (while experimenting with new landing gears, etc.) will be cheaper than crashing a JL-15 with experimental new systems.