Chinese tradition, ceremony,culture

Blackstone

Blackstone

Brigadier
Chinese believes, customs, traditions, and world view make the Middle Kingdom hard to understand to non-Chinese, but only if they choose to look at China through their own lens. An example is democracy. The enclosed article in the LA Times illustrates how Chinese and Westerners look at freedom and democracy in different ways. Western elites should note 65% of the Chinese public surveyed are satisfied or very satisfied with the level of democracy in China. I think that will change once the nation is majority middle class, but for now, only fringe groups want universal suffrage and multiparty elections.

The moral of the story is, "democracy promotion" through umbrella and color revolutions would not only face hostility from the CCP, but most of the general public too.

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China watchers in the West have been fruitlessly searching for signs of democracy for more than 25 years. But there has not been a sustained democracy movement in China since the tragic end of protests in Tiananmen Square and elsewhere in 1989. Most outside observers agree that the People’s Republic remains what it has been since its founding in 1949: a one-party authoritarian regime.

Most Chinese citizens do not see it that way, however. In a nationwide survey in 2014, more than 4,000 urban Chinese were asked how democratic they perceived China to be at different points in time. The vast majority view the level of democracy as increasing steadily since the late 1970s. Almost 60% believe China is already somewhat or very democratic today. Remarkably, more than 80% are optimistic that in the near future China will enjoy a level of democracy on par with the United States.

How can this be? How can external assessments of China’s government and the perceptions of people living under it be so radically different?

The answer turns on the meaning of the word democracy.

Survey respondents were given the opportunity to define democracy in their own words. Most Americans would define it as a political system with free elections, competitive parties, rule of law and related institutions of liberal democracy. But less than 5% of Chinese pointed to those attributes.

About 15% defined democracy in terms of rights: for example, “people enjoy the right to information” and “the opportunity and right to tell the government their views.” Another 15% identified equality and justice among citizens: “Everyone is treated equally” and “to be more equal in terms of income, housing, and employment” were typical responses of this type.

In short, about one-third of urban Chinese defined democracy in terms of checks and balances or other ways that closely match Western notions.

By contrast, a different 30% of Chinese described democracy in terms of how leaders should run the government, not how they are chosen. Comments such as “the people and the government are interdependent” and “government policies reflect public opinion” get at this notion. More importantly, these comments suggest that the public’s interests and the state’s interests are fundamentally in harmony (or at least should be).

The purpose of democracy, as seen by many Chinese, is to make the state strong so that it can better provide for the common well-being of the people and the nation as a whole. It is not a way to hold leaders accountable through elections, limit the state’s authority in order to protect individual rights and freedoms, or adjudicate between competing interests.
Despite lacking political rights and freedoms that we take for granted here, many Chinese see their country as becoming more open.

But by far the most popular definition of democracy — given by a third of the urban Chinese respondents — was “I don’t know”!

These differing definitions of democracy correlated with how satisfied people felt. Almost 65% reported they were satisfied or very satisfied with the level of democracy China has. Those who defined it in terms of elections, parties and rule of law were the least satisfied — and rightfully so — whereas “by and for the people” and “don’t know” were at the high end of the scale. The most satisfied were those who defined democracy in terms of economic growth, but less than 3% did so.

These popular understandings (or misunderstandings) of what democracy is help explain why there has not been a sustained democratization movement in China. People who are optimistic about the future are less inclined to support calls to fundamentally change the regime.

The activists who promote Western-style liberal democratic reform face suppression from the state and indifference from much of society. Liu Xiaobo, for instance, was arrested in 2008 for his role in drafting Charter 08, a bold call for building liberal democracy in China. When he won the Nobel Peace Prize in 2010, many in China were unfamiliar with him. Others doubted he had achieved anything worthy of the prize.

Despite lacking political rights and freedoms that we take for granted here, many Chinese see their country as becoming more open. Even as the Communist Party continues to monitor and suppress any potential threats to its monopoly on power, most citizens still see the state is less intrusive than in the Maoist era or in the immediate post-Tiananmen years.

Still, it’s hard to be sure that trend will continue.

Since Xi Jinping became president in 2013, the scope of repression has increased. The party has tightened control over media content, arrested human rights lawyers and warned scholars against discussing topics such as universal values, civil rights, civil society, press freedoms and judicial independence. Xi’s ongoing anticorruption campaign has exposed the venal top echelons of the party, government and military, which may erode support for the regime. Growing economic inequality and social injustice may also lead people to be less satisfied with the status quo.

But for the moment, besides the party itself, the major obstacle to China’s democratization is the popular belief that the process is already underway.
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Hendrik_2000

Hendrik_2000

Lieutenant General
taxiya said:
I see a flaw in your assertion. You said about the "melamine milk" scandal, then you assert that the culture is lost. But one must remember that Chinese are not all saints, those people who do evil things are Chinese, but they are far from the majority. One can not expect every individual in a society to be up to the standard of what Saint teaches. It is true everywhere, this is not to compete to the low, but simply a fact. It is human nature.

What you talked about the negative things are facts, but they are simply not the evidence of loosing culture.
Click to expand...

I understand that there are bad people everywhere that take advantage of the system.
Melamine milk is not an isolated cases .

We also have Tianjin Blast that kill many people or landslide in Shenzhen or gutter oil . This is more than gross negligent. This is the case where people take short cut or disregard of safety in order to maximize profit.

Where is the regulating agency that supposed t prevent this from happening ?

Accident happened everywhere but so many accident or fiasco one after another is symptom of culture that show little concern for their fellow human being .

Why you never heard of food scandal in Japan or Taiwan for that matter. There is one food scandal about contaminated siu mai in Japan because it is imported from China. The cause is disgruntled employee taking revenge on his employer that exported the food to Japan. And he concede it.

On another subject The CCP did excellent job in reducing poverty but there are still 40 million poor people in China . I know it is hard to completely eliminate poverty.Because they are located in remote area and getting access is hard . They did built a road and infrastructure to those area but it take time .

China now has the largest number of billionaire . A lot of people get rich But where are they ?.Why didn't they founded charity organization to complement the government effort which would make it worthy cause. Instead of sending the money to spoiled brat in Vancouver and wasted it on luxuries.
Read this dedication plaque of Tan Tock Seng hospital Where he contribute money to take care and house orphan. It is moving.it tug my heart. Philanthropy, Charity, Take a pity to the less fortunate(Liangsim) and service the community are the hallmark of overseas Chinese community . I am proud of that
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Hospital (later the Tan Tock Seng Hospital)
Singapore, 1845
Stone
Collection of Tan Tock Seng hospital

A stone steele carved in 1845 records Tan’s reasons for making the donation:

大 凡守望相助，里井原有同情，而疾病相持，吾人寜無夙願。矧叻州者西南地極，瘴癘頻生，所以瘡傷痍癩之人，尤爲狼藉，既無衣食以禦其飢寒，復無戶牖以蔽其風 兩，人生况瘁之遭，莫踰于此，能不目擊而心傷哉！前 國王樹德推恩，經有猪傌之設以爲病室，今盛典已不再矣！而道路匍匐，較之昔日而愈甚焉。余自經營商賈以來，私心窃念，欲有所事於孤苦之人，而有志未舉，幸 際 新嘉埠梹榔嶼 呷三州俄文律姑呢峇抵騧 朥示珍康申喳脂 臨蒞，胞與爲懷，痌瘝厪念，嘱余構屋以紹前徽。余因夙有此心，是以直任不辭，另尋淑地，無雜囂塵，俾斯人得所棲息。此一役也，雖曰亟命使然，而實不負於余 之素志云爾。是爲序。
旹
大清道光贰拾伍年乙巳歲
英吉黎壹仟捌佰肆拾伍年
孟春之月榖旦
福建省漳郡澄邑陳篤生謹誌

Generally speaking, people look out for and help one another. Those who live in the same village and drink from the same well have close feelings. They support each other through illness. How could I not have had (a similar) long-cherished wish? Moreover, Singapore is situated in the far southwest, where vapours contin¬uously rise, and people are often infected with skin ulcers and leprosy. Everything there is in disarray. There are no clothes or food to help them in hunger and cold. Nor are there houses to shelter them from the wind and rain. People in such tiring circumstances do not get worse than this. How can one witness this and not feel pain in one’s heart? Formerly, the [British] king ad virtue and extended mercy. He put people who were living in “pigsties and barns” into hospitals to care for their ills. But these excellent practices are no longer seen, and the roads are crawling [with people]. Conditions are far worse than before. Ever since I started my business, in my heart I have always wanted to do something for the abandoned and the suffering. But my ambition was not fulfilled. Fortunately, Colonel Butterworth of Singapore, Penang, and Malacca and Resident Council Church attended [to this idea], and kept this dream alive. They diligently thought about the pain and suffering of others, and urged me to build a hospital in order to continue earlier accomplishments. Because I had always had this intention, I took on this responsi¬bility without hesitation. I sought out a good piece of land that is quiet and free of dirt, where people could rest. Even though one could say that this was an official order that I had to carry out, it was not something that betrayed my original inten¬tions. This is my preface.
Qing dynasty, 25th year of the Daoguang reign
1845 in the English calendar
On an auspicious day in mid-spring
Recorded with care by Tan Tock Seng of Cheng town, Zhangzhou prefecture, Fujian province
 
Last edited:
Jeff Head

Jeff Head

General
Registered Member
Hendrik_2000 said:
I
Generally speaking, people look out for and help one another. Those who live in the same village and drink from the same well have close feelings. They support each other through illness.
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I have had the opportunity through my career to travel across the world.

Most people, at heart, are good.

In the small town I was raised in those that I have lived in in the US raising my own family, to the places I have visited, I have found that most people share these traits you mention here Hendrick.

Generally, people who seek power and seek to impose their own version of what "ought" to happen on others are the flies in the ointment. Not the people themselves.
 
solarz

solarz

Brigadier
Hendrik_2000 said:
I understand that there are bad people everywhere that take advantage of the system.
Melamine milk is not an isolated cases .

We also have Tianjin Blast that kill many people or landslide in Shenzhen or gutter oil . This is more than gross negligent. This is the case where people take short cut or disregard of safety in order to maximize profit.

Where is the regulating agency that supposed t prevent this from happening ?

Accident happened everywhere but so many accident or fiasco one after another is symptom of culture that show little concern for their fellow human being .
Click to expand...

You are expounding Confucian ideals, but history has shown that Confucianism is a horrible way to administer society.

In the Warring States era, kingdoms that promoted Confucianism before Legalism inevitably fell into corruption. People can rationalize any action. If you only provide a moral framework, people can twist it into any interpretation that suits them.

States that promoted Legalism and booted Confucius out of their country became strong and powerful, eventually conquering those states that promoted Confucianism.

For a time, Confucianism was even outlawed. It was only after Legalists discovered that Confucianism could be used to appease the masses was it reinstated, but firmly subverted to support the feudal order.

If Legalism is the iron fist, then Confucianism is just the velvet glove.
 
T

taxiya

Brigadier
Registered Member
Hendrik_2000 said:
I understand that there are bad people everywhere that take advantage of the system.
Melamine milk is not an isolated cases .

We also have Tianjin Blast that kill many people or landslide in Shenzhen or gutter oil . This is more than gross negligent. This is the case where people take short cut or disregard of safety in order to maximize profit.

Where is the regulating agency that supposed t prevent this from happening ?

Accident happened everywhere but so many accident or fiasco one after another is symptom of culture that show little concern for their fellow human being .

Why you never heard of food scandal in Japan or Taiwan for that matter. There is one food scandal about contaminated siu mai in Japan because it is imported from China. The cause is disgruntled employee taking revenge on his employer that exported the food to Japan. And he concede it.

On another subject The CCP did excellent job in reducing poverty but there are still 40 million poor people in China . I know it is hard to completely eliminate poverty.Because they are located in remote area and getting access is hard . They did built a road and infrastructure to those area but it take time .

China now has the largest number of billionaire . A lot of people get rich But where are they ?.Why didn't they founded charity organization to complement the government effort which would make it worthy cause. Instead of sending the money to spoiled brat in Vancouver and wasted it on luxuries.
Read this dedication plaque of Tan Tock Seng hospital Where he contribute money to take care and house orphan. It is moving.it tug my heart. Philanthropy, Charity, Take a pity to the less fortunate(Liangsim) and service the community are the hallmark of overseas Chinese community . I am proud of that
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!


Hospital (later the Tan Tock Seng Hospital)
Singapore, 1845
Stone
Collection of Tan Tock Seng hospital

A stone steele carved in 1845 records Tan’s reasons for making the donation:

大 凡守望相助，里井原有同情，而疾病相持，吾人寜無夙願。矧叻州者西南地極，瘴癘頻生，所以瘡傷痍癩之人，尤爲狼藉，既無衣食以禦其飢寒，復無戶牖以蔽其風 兩，人生况瘁之遭，莫踰于此，能不目擊而心傷哉！前 國王樹德推恩，經有猪傌之設以爲病室，今盛典已不再矣！而道路匍匐，較之昔日而愈甚焉。余自經營商賈以來，私心窃念，欲有所事於孤苦之人，而有志未舉，幸 際 新嘉埠梹榔嶼 呷三州俄文律姑呢峇抵騧 朥示珍康申喳脂 臨蒞，胞與爲懷，痌瘝厪念，嘱余構屋以紹前徽。余因夙有此心，是以直任不辭，另尋淑地，無雜囂塵，俾斯人得所棲息。此一役也，雖曰亟命使然，而實不負於余 之素志云爾。是爲序。
旹
大清道光贰拾伍年乙巳歲
英吉黎壹仟捌佰肆拾伍年
孟春之月榖旦
福建省漳郡澄邑陳篤生謹誌

Generally speaking, people look out for and help one another. Those who live in the same village and drink from the same well have close feelings. They support each other through illness. How could I not have had (a similar) long-cherished wish? Moreover, Singapore is situated in the far southwest, where vapours contin¬uously rise, and people are often infected with skin ulcers and leprosy. Everything there is in disarray. There are no clothes or food to help them in hunger and cold. Nor are there houses to shelter them from the wind and rain. People in such tiring circumstances do not get worse than this. How can one witness this and not feel pain in one’s heart? Formerly, the [British] king ad virtue and extended mercy. He put people who were living in “pigsties and barns” into hospitals to care for their ills. But these excellent practices are no longer seen, and the roads are crawling [with people]. Conditions are far worse than before. Ever since I started my business, in my heart I have always wanted to do something for the abandoned and the suffering. But my ambition was not fulfilled. Fortunately, Colonel Butterworth of Singapore, Penang, and Malacca and Resident Council Church attended [to this idea], and kept this dream alive. They diligently thought about the pain and suffering of others, and urged me to build a hospital in order to continue earlier accomplishments. Because I had always had this intention, I took on this responsi¬bility without hesitation. I sought out a good piece of land that is quiet and free of dirt, where people could rest. Even though one could say that this was an official order that I had to carry out, it was not something that betrayed my original inten¬tions. This is my preface.
Qing dynasty, 25th year of the Daoguang reign
1845 in the English calendar
On an auspicious day in mid-spring
Recorded with care by Tan Tock Seng of Cheng town, Zhangzhou prefecture, Fujian province
Click to expand...
I understand your sentiment, but I fail to see the relationship between what you said above and your conclusion of "loosing culture".

One example is that what you are seeing and complaining of "moral failure of today's China" has happened many times in the past, but you can not define those period of "moral failure" as lost of Culture, if you do so you are essentially saying that "there was never a Chinese culture" in the first place to be lost because we have lost it from day one. The examples began around the "spring and autumn era, warring state era" when Confucius himself labeled the time being morally corrupted and calling to revive the Saint way, the ancient way etc. Remember 克己复礼？Every time afterwards, at the transition period of the falling dynasties and the rising new dynasties, there are chaos, people struggle for survivals and rulers grabbing powers. That circle has repeated at least 25 times and more. Today is just another one. If you call today as "loosing culture", then China has lost her culture over the past 5000 years, there would not be any culture to loose today.

I think you and I have a different definition of what is culture and therefor what is to be lost. You have a very critical and narrower definition of culture. In your view, anything that is bad is and should not be part of the culture, only the good ones are. You also believe that the lost good ones have no chance to come back, therefor lost. While I have a more relaxed definition, I believe whatever the collective people possess at the time is part of their culture, good or bad. What saints promoted are part of the culture and probably will last forever because that reflects people's wish and desire. But one should also be willing to admit that the common people including all of us have shortcomings and some of us may fall behind the good wills of Saint. But we should not just deny our shortcomings as part of ourselves. And most importantly, we should have confidence to humanity that good things will stay.

In short, take it easy.
 
T

taxiya

Brigadier
Registered Member
@Hendrik_2000
Continue:
Although Karl Max is closely connected to Communism therefor many of you may distance yourself from his theory. but I see him as a philosopher and social scientist more than a communist. His study and conclusions are perfect to explain what I am trying to say.

The foundation of human life is economy activity. It is equal to earth, air and water being the fundamentals of natural world. Economy activity produces culture and social institutions which are shaped by culture. When the economy foundation is going through a vast change, culture and social institutions will have to adapt to the new foundation, not the other way around.

For human's own sake, people want a stable and secure environment for their economy activities, that is the desire for good culture aspects to guide daily lives. Because that desire is constant, it is guaranteed that the good culture aspects will survive.

The temporary "lost" of the goods are always due to the drastic change of economy fundamentals. You can see all these "lost" during the past human history all over the world, no exceptions.

For example, during the renaissance, Europe "lost" Christianity more or less, but replaced the church with social welfare system and democracy institutions. I don't see Europe really lost anything essential, it is merely an evolution of European culture. Remember Europe "lost" her classical culture (Greco-Roman) to the then rising Christianity earlier, but got most of it back during renaissance. You can also get the same conclusion about Europe during her early industrialization, when both European commoners and people in colonies were harshly exploited by the capitalists without any sense of humanity preached by the bible. Why? Because the industrialization was the overhauling of the economy foundation in Europe.

In the same vein, China is experiencing the very same thing like Europe did since the fall of Qing dynasty. What you are seeing is just a temporary "lost", but the goods will come back in Confucius name or in other names once the dust of economy foundational change settled.

Learning the history of one's own and other's alike and compare to one's past and other's past is the only way to figure out what is going on today and where we will be heading.

I sincerely suggest you to watch the movie "Agora (
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)". It tells you when, why and how the Classical European/Mediterranean culture lost its grip to Christianity around 400AD. The center character is professor Hypatia of Alexandria in Roman Egypt. Her death at the hand of Christian mobs in 415AD is regarded as the death of classical period. You would be desperate if you were an adherent of Roman, Greek and classical Egyptian culture living at that time.
 
P

PanAsian

Major
Hendrik_2000 said:
I understand that there are bad people everywhere that take advantage of the system.
Melamine milk is not an isolated cases .

We also have Tianjin Blast that kill many people or landslide in Shenzhen or gutter oil . This is more than gross negligent. This is the case where people take short cut or disregard of safety in order to maximize profit.
Click to expand...

The examples you cite are all judgment failures by a specific group of people due likely mostly to their desire to pursue financial gain. All these cases have been condemned by Chinese society at large including the authorities. The fact that the overall reaction has been condemnation indicates that overall Chinese society have not lost their moral compass, nor culture in that sense.

Perhaps culture has changed to value more highly the pursuit of financial gain, but all things have positives and negatives, you cited some examples when this particular value caused negative results, have you balanced that with considering examples of when this particular value caused positive results?

Where is the regulating agency that supposed t prevent this from happening ?
Click to expand...

Fires happen despite fire departments, crimes happen despite police departments, laws, education, parenting, and culture, the world over. Systems exist to minimize bad things happening but no system or systems can prevent all bad things from happening.

Accident happened everywhere but so many accident or fiasco one after another is symptom of culture that show little concern for their fellow human being .

Why you never heard of food scandal in Japan or Taiwan for that matter. There is one food scandal about contaminated siu mai in Japan because it is imported from China. The cause is disgruntled employee taking revenge on his employer that exported the food to Japan. And he concede it.
Click to expand...

You are comparing apples to oranges comparing China today, a huge developing country, to Japan and Taiwan today, two small developed countries. Do some homework and look at when Japan or Taiwan, or for that matter France, the UK, the US, or any other country, when it was at the same stage of development as China today. You will find plenty of disasters and scandals mirroring those in China today.

On another subject The CCP did excellent job in reducing poverty but there are still 40 million poor people in China . I know it is hard to completely eliminate poverty.Because they are located in remote area and getting access is hard . They did built a road and infrastructure to those area but it take time .

China now has the largest number of billionaire . A lot of people get rich But where are they ?.Why didn't they founded charity organization to complement the government effort which would make it worthy cause. Instead of sending the money to spoiled brat in Vancouver and wasted it on luxuries.
Read this dedication plaque of Tan Tock Seng hospital Where he contribute money to take care and house orphan. It is moving.it tug my heart. Philanthropy, Charity, Take a pity to the less fortunate(Liangsim) and service the community are the hallmark of overseas Chinese community . I am proud of that
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!


Hospital (later the Tan Tock Seng Hospital)
Singapore, 1845
Stone
Collection of Tan Tock Seng hospital

A stone steele carved in 1845 records Tan’s reasons for making the donation:

大 凡守望相助，里井原有同情，而疾病相持，吾人寜無夙願。矧叻州者西南地極，瘴癘頻生，所以瘡傷痍癩之人，尤爲狼藉，既無衣食以禦其飢寒，復無戶牖以蔽其風 兩，人生况瘁之遭，莫踰于此，能不目擊而心傷哉！前 國王樹德推恩，經有猪傌之設以爲病室，今盛典已不再矣！而道路匍匐，較之昔日而愈甚焉。余自經營商賈以來，私心窃念，欲有所事於孤苦之人，而有志未舉，幸 際 新嘉埠梹榔嶼 呷三州俄文律姑呢峇抵騧 朥示珍康申喳脂 臨蒞，胞與爲懷，痌瘝厪念，嘱余構屋以紹前徽。余因夙有此心，是以直任不辭，另尋淑地，無雜囂塵，俾斯人得所棲息。此一役也，雖曰亟命使然，而實不負於余 之素志云爾。是爲序。
旹
大清道光贰拾伍年乙巳歲
英吉黎壹仟捌佰肆拾伍年
孟春之月榖旦
福建省漳郡澄邑陳篤生謹誌

Generally speaking, people look out for and help one another. Those who live in the same village and drink from the same well have close feelings. They support each other through illness. How could I not have had (a similar) long-cherished wish? Moreover, Singapore is situated in the far southwest, where vapours contin¬uously rise, and people are often infected with skin ulcers and leprosy. Everything there is in disarray. There are no clothes or food to help them in hunger and cold. Nor are there houses to shelter them from the wind and rain. People in such tiring circumstances do not get worse than this. How can one witness this and not feel pain in one’s heart? Formerly, the [British] king ad virtue and extended mercy. He put people who were living in “pigsties and barns” into hospitals to care for their ills. But these excellent practices are no longer seen, and the roads are crawling [with people]. Conditions are far worse than before. Ever since I started my business, in my heart I have always wanted to do something for the abandoned and the suffering. But my ambition was not fulfilled. Fortunately, Colonel Butterworth of Singapore, Penang, and Malacca and Resident Council Church attended [to this idea], and kept this dream alive. They diligently thought about the pain and suffering of others, and urged me to build a hospital in order to continue earlier accomplishments. Because I had always had this intention, I took on this responsi¬bility without hesitation. I sought out a good piece of land that is quiet and free of dirt, where people could rest. Even though one could say that this was an official order that I had to carry out, it was not something that betrayed my original inten¬tions. This is my preface.
Qing dynasty, 25th year of the Daoguang reign
1845 in the English calendar
On an auspicious day in mid-spring
Recorded with care by Tan Tock Seng of Cheng town, Zhangzhou prefecture, Fujian province
Click to expand...

If you are implying a lack of charity on the part of rich Chinese today compared to others today or in a different place in a different era then you have to make sure you are comparing apples to apples, not oranges. You have to do some homework to compare charity on the part of the rich in other countries when those countries were at the same stage of development as China.

You also have to take into account the preference for humility and anonymity among many who are charitable including many Chinese, while others prefer to proclaim their charity. You also have to take into account no news is good news so you are more likely being spoon fed or even force fed bad news while you have to seek out good news.

Perhaps you expected China or Chinese people or culture or government or all of the above put together to perform better than everyone else, unfortunately that is not realistic, Chinese are people too just like everyone else and the universe works the same way for them as it does for the rest of the world.

Culture is constantly evolving, there are external and internal influences, never with anyone in complete control but everyone, including you, gets to shape it through living by example. It is also only one set of many sets of tools people have to try to make the world a better place.
 
solarz

solarz

Brigadier
PanAsian said:
If you are implying a lack of charity on the part of rich Chinese today compared to others today or in a different place in a different era then you have to make sure you are comparing apples to apples, not oranges. You have to do some homework to compare charity on the part of the rich in other countries when those countries were at the same stage of development as China.

You also have to take into account the preference for humility and anonymity among many who are charitable including many Chinese, while others prefer to proclaim their charity. You also have to take into account no news is good news so you are more likely being spoon fed or even force fed bad news while you have to seek out good news.

Perhaps you expected China or Chinese people or culture or government or all of the above put together to perform better than everyone else, unfortunately that is not realistic, Chinese are people too just like everyone else and the universe works the same way for them as it does for the rest of the world.

Culture is constantly evolving, there are external and internal influences, never with anyone in complete control but everyone, including you, gets to shape it through living by example. It is also only one set of many sets of tools people have to try to make the world a better place.
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Another issue to take note is that charity, as an institution, is a Western tradition, deriving from the historical role the christian church played in feudal european society. This is not to say charity is foreign to Chinese culture, but organized charity, i.e. the business of soliciting donations and using 99.9% of those donations to pay for running the charity, is a western invention.

While organized charity is starting to take off in China as well, thanks to globalization, it is nowhere near the maturity of western charities. Therefore, we likely won't hear much about them in the media.
 
P

PanAsian

Major
solarz said:
Another issue to take note is that charity, as an institution, is a Western tradition, deriving from the historical role the christian church played in feudal european society. This is not to say charity is foreign to Chinese culture, but organized charity, i.e. the business of soliciting donations and using 99.9% of those donations to pay for running the charity, is a western invention.

While organized charity is starting to take off in China as well, thanks to globalization, it is nowhere near the maturity of western charities. Therefore, we likely won't hear much about them in the media.
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Wow, that is a vague, broad, and highly debatable claim. What exactly do you mean by "charity as an institution" and "organized charity"?

Modern levels and concentrations of wealth, modern technologies have enabled methods in the field of charity to allow charitable acts to be more systemic. These are not uniquely Western nor due to Christian churches' role in feudal European society though Western societies may have encountered these developments first. These developments have also introduced additional ulterior motives without removing ulterior motives that have always come with charity.

Religious charities, charities operating in foreign countries, charities seeking publicity, charities dealing with education, charities dealing with adoption or avoidance of particular products,
tax breaks for charitable contributions, charities for particular ideals such as animal rights or environmentalism, charities for public goods such as public television, etc. are all subject to ulterior motives.
 
T

taxiya

Brigadier
Registered Member
solarz said:
Another issue to take note is that charity, as an institution, is a Western tradition, deriving from the historical role the christian church played in feudal european society. This is not to say charity is foreign to Chinese culture, but organized charity, i.e. the business of soliciting donations and using 99.9% of those donations to pay for running the charity, is a western invention.

While organized charity is starting to take off in China as well, thanks to globalization, it is nowhere near the maturity of western charities. Therefore, we likely won't hear much about them in the media.
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Well, I think Buddhist and Taoist temples historically perform the same kind of charity activities in China just like Christian churches in Europe. They were all organized charities.

However, I do agree with you that in China the scale and role of charity is less than west, and the vast public (non governmental) involvement in Charity is a very western thing. This is simply because in Chinese tradition the state carries the duty that is carried by the Church/Charity in the west. In other words, there is no need for the Church/Charity or Buddist or Taoist temples to do Charity, good complement though. One of the fundamental quality of a traditional Chinese government is to provide social work, basic disaster relief during tough time. This is also why the Roman state failed to compete with the Christian Church, again see the story of Agora 2009, while Chinese state remained paramount in the society.

So, not only the Chinese charity is far less mature than the west, but I don't think it ever will so long as the Chinese state performs its duty well.

One thing we need to keep in mind when comparing west and China is that, west is a very decentralized society where the Church and the King were essentially two bodies of the institution. While in China there is only one unified institution, the state act both as the King and Church etc.
 
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