Chinese submarines thread

[Pointblank]

Re: Chinese sub thread

That was also before the advent of flank arrays, which is also a fairly recent phenomenon among subs, which greatly increased detection along the sides and to the reat. The 688I was the first US sub to have them built outright, and for the Soviets, the Victor III. I'm not sure if some of the subs you mentioned have a TAS due to the size and space limitation.

Hull-mounted sonar cannot detect anything in the baffles, as it is a blind spot in any submarine. The cavitation and the wake left by the propulsion system of submarines inhibit hull-mounted sonar systems from detecting anything hiding there as the noise will provide a barrier which prevents sounds from a submarine hiding in the baffles from reaching the hull mounted sonar systems. A towed sonar array can break through the sound barrier and see behind the barrier as the system is behind the sound barrier and can pickup any noise from a submarine hiding in the baffles.

 

[crobato]

And the reason for that is because hull mounted sonars are traditionally forward facing. Its less an issue with flank sonars.

This s also providing if you are traveling fast enough to create a baffle which itself is caused by supercavitation. However, variable pitch screws have canceled supercavitation issues, reducing baffles to hydrodynamic wave drage stemming from the hull.

At lower speeds when you want to detect something with your power systems running slow and quiet, baffles are not an issue because you don't produce enough of it. The thing is, if you want to hide completely using the baffles against a sub with flank mounted sonars you have to be totally behind the sub in the first place because a sub creating significant baffles have to be running near its top speed. Once you're completely behind, it assumes you can catch it. Subs in practice always turn to the left or right anyway in order to clear the baffles.

The problem of TAS is having something tagging along is its own drag and with its, turbulence and sounds caused by hydrodynamics.

Let me rephrase this again.

I'm not saying that TAS is not important but its not a "must" especially for ships and subs in the littoral environment. I've mentioned the weight and drag issues from the wire spool, plus the machine that has to pull it. The fact that for it to work requires that the line must be straight creates a maneuverbility issue for the vessel---it can only travel in a straight line. If the sub or ship is constantly and randomly maneuvering (e.g. turning to the left or right), which also cleares the baffles you won't need TAS and TAS won't work either because you don't have a straight tow line. Maneuvering is something smaller subs do well.

Another is the possibility of catching something with it, like another ship, and this can have disastrous consequences. You can also catch the sea bottom, and that would be a bad mistake.

TAS works better in the clear, blue ocean with a lot less traffic, on a deeper sea with a lot less of a chance the tow will hit something. It works better for subs that don't maneuver well, e.g. a long large boomer vs. a small conventional sub. It works better for ships that have the space to carry the wire, the power to run the winch and overcome the drag issues. Thus it makes sense for the design and the mission of the 094.

tphuang posted this on another thread in this forum:

China to test space weapon in launching moon satellite: rights group

Kyodo News

(c) 2007 Kyodo News

HONG KONG, Oct. 23 -- A Chinese submarine will send test signals that could change the course of a satellite when China launches its first moon orbiter, as part of the country's effort to develop space war technology, a human rights watchdog said Tuesday.

The Information Center for Human Rights and Democracy said two survey ships are deployed in the South Pacific Ocean and South Atlantic Ocean to send signals to maneuver the lunar exploration satellite, expected to be launched Wednesday. At the same time, a nuclear-powered submarine will send simulated signals to the satellite as a test, it said in a statement.

Once the satellite-maneuvering technology matures, the group said, China would have the know-how to destroy other satellites in space in wartime. China could launch cheaply-made weapon-carrying objects into space and change their courses to destroy or damage satellites of other countries by sending signals from submarines, the center said.

China shocked the world in January by firing a missile at an old weather satellite without notifying anyone in advance, showing off its anti-satellite weaponry and its ability to shoot down satellites without being immediately noticed.

Hong Kong's media reported that a rocket that will carry the satellite was being fueled up, banners of greetings on the successful launch were prepared and farmers living near the Xichang Satellite Launch Center, in mid-western China's Sichuan Province, will be evicted one hour ahead of the launch.

China plans to launch the satellite around 6 p.m. Wednesday, the official Xinhua News Agency reported Monday, quoting a spokesman of the China National Space Administration. The satellite is named Chang'e I after the legendary Chinese goddess who, according to legend, flew to the moon.

China's space industry enjoyed its first major success after astronaut Yang Liwei reentered Earth after 21 hours in space in 2003 in the spacecraft Shenzhou 5, marking China's first successful manned space mission.

A second manned space mission was successfully concluded in 2005 after astronauts Fei Junlong and Nie Haisheng finished orbiting the Earth for five days in the spacecraft Shenzhou 6.

==Kyodo

It seems quite obvious based on the passages, that at least one nuclear sub is on patrol, possibly a long ranged one. But which sub is the one emanating the satellite control signal? An 094 on the water being the signal sender with an 093 acting as escort?

I wonder also about the possibility of submarine based ASAT with SSBNs launching the satellite killers. The ASAT last January was boosted into orbit by a KT-1 booster, which is said to be based on the DF-21, and which was also the basis for the JL-1. A more powerful booster, the KT-2, is based on the DF-31, which in turn is also the basis for the JL-2.

 

[tphuang]

Re: Chinese sub thread

tphuang posted this on another thread in this forum:



It seems quite obvious based on the passages, that at least one nuclear sub is on patrol, possibly a long ranged one. But which sub is the one emanating the satellite control signal? An 094 on the water being the signal sender with an 093 acting as escort?

I wonder also about the possibility of submarine based ASAT with SSBNs launching the satellite killers. The ASAT last January was boosted into orbit by a KT-1 booster, which is said to be based on the DF-21, and which was also the basis for the JL-1. A more powerful booster, the KT-2, is based on the DF-31, which in turn is also the basis for the JL-2.

yeah, I read that they were working on an ASAT that can take out satellites at a much higher altitude (I guess GPS level?) and that's suppose to be completed in a couple of years? There are also stories about using lasers and such.

 

[crobato]

Re: Chinese sub thread

If they used the KT-2 booster they can greatly increase the range multiple fold. The last shot was with a KT-1 booster, which is the equivalent of the DF-21/JL-1. Lasers are used for temporary to permanent disruption, without blowing the satellite into smithereens and leaving debris.

 

[crobato]

Re: Chinese sub thread

We are seeing this tail end sensor of late added to Yuans and Songs. Previously its not there before.

 

[tphuang]

Re: Chinese sub thread

We are seeing this tail end sensor of late added to Yuans and Songs. Previously its not there before.

yep, reminds me of the one on 094 (sort of)
anyhow new picture of Yuan, this is from Modern Ships 12A edition.

 

[crobato]

Re: Chinese sub thread

Its a recent picture, though it was already shown before. This version of the picture is however had its gamma balance manipulated so more detail on the sub can be shown.

 

[crobato]

Re: Chinese sub thread

This is the pic of the Xia model showing a skewed prop in the end.

 

[tphuang]

Re: Chinese sub thread

This is the pic of the Xia model showing a skewed prop in the end.

it suggests that was part of the upgrade. I'm guessing the 091s probably got the same upgrade.

Actually, Huitong wrote
"A new cylindical bow sonar (H/SQG-262B) was also installed, as well as a new 7-blade skew propeller to reduce noise. Type 091G might have new flank sonar arrays installed as well."

 

[Schumacher]

Re: Chinese sub thread

According to this, a PLAN Song evaded the Kitty Hawk's defensive screen to get close to it recently.
I believe this is the second time in recent yrs.

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The uninvited guest: Chinese sub pops up in middle of U.S. Navy exercise, leaving military chiefs red-faced
By MATTHEW HICKLEY - More by this author » Last updated at 00:13am on 10th November 2007

Comments Comments (6)
When the U.S. Navy deploys a battle fleet on exercises, it takes the security of its aircraft carriers very seriously indeed.

At least a dozen warships provide a physical guard while the technical wizardry of the world's only military superpower offers an invisible shield to detect and deter any intruders.

That is the theory. Or, rather, was the theory.

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Song Class submarine

Uninvited guest: A Chinese Song Class submarine, like the one that sufaced by the U.S.S. Kitty Hawk

American military chiefs have been left dumbstruck by an undetected Chinese submarine popping up at the heart of a recent Pacific exercise and close to the vast U.S.S. Kitty Hawk - a 1,000ft supercarrier with 4,500 personnel on board.

By the time it surfaced the 160ft Song Class diesel-electric attack submarine is understood to have sailed within viable range for launching torpedoes or missiles at the carrier.

According to senior Nato officials the incident caused consternation in the U.S. Navy.

The Americans had no idea China's fast-growing submarine fleet had reached such a level of sophistication, or that it posed such a threat.

One Nato figure said the effect was "as big a shock as the Russians launching Sputnik" - a reference to the Soviet Union's first orbiting satellite in 1957 which marked the start of the space age.

The incident, which took place in the ocean between southern Japan and Taiwan, is a major embarrassment for the Pentagon.

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Kitty Hawk

Battle stations: The Kitty Hawk carries 4,500 personnel

The lone Chinese vessel slipped past at least a dozen other American warships which were supposed to protect the carrier from hostile aircraft or submarines.

And the rest of the costly defensive screen, which usually includes at least two U.S. submarines, was also apparently unable to detect it.

According to the Nato source, the encounter has forced a serious re-think of American and Nato naval strategy as commanders reconsider the level of threat from potentially hostile Chinese submarines.

It also led to tense diplomatic exchanges, with shaken American diplomats demanding to know why the submarine was "shadowing" the U.S. fleet while Beijing pleaded ignorance and dismissed the affair as coincidence.

Analysts believe Beijing was sending a message to America and the West demonstrating its rapidly-growing military capability to threaten foreign powers which try to interfere in its "backyard".

The People's Liberation Army Navy's submarine fleet includes at least two nuclear-missile launching vessels.

Its 13 Song Class submarines are extremely quiet and difficult to detect when running on electric motors.

Commodore Stephen Saunders, editor of Jane's Fighting Ships, and a former Royal Navy anti-submarine specialist, said the U.S. had paid relatively little attention to this form of warfare since the end of the Cold War.

He said: "It was certainly a wake-up call for the Americans.

"It would tie in with what we see the Chinese trying to do, which appears to be to deter the Americans from interfering or operating in their backyard, particularly in relation to Taiwan."

In January China carried a successful missile test, shooting down a satellite in orbit for the first time.