Chinese submarines thread

[IDonT]

Re: Chinese sub thread

Well chinese material in most is even more outdated than Serbian ones that included 80's technology as well...

...but thats just to make me feel little 'smarter'

1999 Serbian campaing was perfect example of how mythical aspects US military migth have achieved beating badly wartorne, ill trained and motivated Iraq army nine years earlyer. When considering some possiple confrontation agaisnt US, you always have to look waht sosial acpects it has. Is the war suported by US 'home front' and in what extense? How much cassuals US is prepared to take to beat you up? US military has the power enough to beat even PRC, but it would take lot of blood, if not US troops, then from chinese civilians, and in modern world, thats is become unaceptable. When NATO waved their warflag against Beograd, everybody, including me thougth it was going to be an easy take and Serbians would fall into their knees in fron of superior Opponent. Well we all know what happened. Milosevic was replaced, eventually, but not directly from NATOs actions. He would have gone anyway, NATO just speeded things up, but lost their change to decide who was to took the lead. So Orginal agenda of NATO wasent acomplised, and Serbians lost KOsovo, but did they lose the war when we all know what NATOs ultimate plans were?
the concept of resistant-victory (a finnish odity meaning similar situation what we faced in spring 1940) seems to be bit unfamiliar to you, But I belive that any nation of well motified and reasonably enogh equiped army can beat the biggest opponent in todays world.

But enough of politics and more of chinese subs...

Serbian airdefence was abysmal, except for that airdefence Officer who shot down all 3 NATO aircraft, including the F-117. He did by relying on tactics, while NATO air planners got lazy, using the same flight route. Getting 3 aircraft shotdown in with a sortie rate in the tens of thousands is excellent war record. Having the capability to shoot down a dozen aircraft does not mean you can win a war, especially against the US.

 

[Roger604]

Re: Chinese sub thread

If the USN anti-missile, anti-aircraft capabilities are so good, how do you explain the Russian jets penetrating Kitty Hawk defenses in 2000 and taking pictures of the deck? Why is it that real world combat always contradicts the gradiose claims of US weapons makers? Fact: weapons makers greatly exaggerate the abilities of their products, and pro-US hawks buy into their BS. The US can defeat China if it devotes all of the USN and USAF to doing so, but the fact is that it won't fight in that kind of way because it's afraid of taking losses.

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

After the reconnaissance flight over the American aircraft carrier Kitty Hawk in the Sea of Japan, Russian Air Force pilots sent the photos taken by them to aboard the Kitty, Pentagon spokesman Ken Bacon said Thursday at a briefing. He would not answer journalists whether it was done with a jeer or otherwise. Mr. Bacon only mentioned that he had not seen the e-letter for himself. In his words, he was ignorant of who was the sender, RIA Novosti reports. The reconnaissance operation was carried out by Russian military pilots with the aim to break open the anti-aircraft system of the US Navy aircraft-carrier multipurpose force. As a result, Russian Sukhoi-23MR reconnoitre aircrafts managed to approach the Kitty unnoticed and to take photos of it. Mr. Bacon also for the first time admitted that there had been not two, but three episodes of the Russian aircrafts flying in the vicinity of the Kitty, that is, on October 12th, 17th, and November 9th. In the last event, the aircrafts flew as near as 300-600 metres away from the ship.

 

[MIGleader]

Re: Chinese sub thread

what happened to chinese submarines?
we have a thread already talkig about this.

the han indeed cannot be noisier than the nautilus, the first nuclear sub ever made. the 93 needs to be used in conbination with ssks to achieve maximum effect. it will drive many a sonar commander crazy looking for almost invisible dots on his screen. especiially if there are dozens of them

 

[bd popeye]

Re: Chinese sub thread

If the USN anti-missile, anti-aircraft capabilities are so good, how do you explain the Russian jets penetrating Kitty Hawk defenses in 2000 and taking pictures of the deck? Why is it that real world combat always contradicts the gradiose claims of US weapons makers? Fact: weapons makers greatly exaggerate the abilities of their products, and pro-US hawks buy into their BS. The US can defeat China if it devotes all of the USN and USAF to doing so, but the fact is that it won't fight in that kind of way because it's afraid of taking losses

You know hat we discussed this in the old forum. I remember I was bragging about CV's I served on never being over flown without being escorted by fighter. And that's true. So why did this happen to the Kitty Hawk? They were conducting a underway replenishment at the time. They were in a peacetime posture. They had the intell...someone did not act on it. ..Embarrasment for the Kitty Hawk. But it has not happend since to any USN CV deployed that I know of. And to my knowledge this is the only time it ever happened. But I would not be surprised if it has happend several times in the past because of peacetime posture or other oversites.

You mentioned that the US could not take the losses. That's a fallacy. The US military is fully prepared to take losses. It's the US media that loves to dramatize every fallen military member and declines to show enemy casualties. Pres. Bill Clinion was afraid of US losses. He did not want the US populace to see dead Americans on Tv. He himself being a draft dodging coward he was not at all respected by the US military. This is where that myth started.

Of course the US hawks on this board cannot comprehend any scenario where the US loses even one ship or even one plane. Because they know that unless the US can walk all over its adversaries with impunity, even a small amount of losses will deter them politically

I hope you are not refering to me as a "US Hawk". By no means am I a "Hawk"
That is absurd and very insulting. I would never post such a statement about anyone in this forum.

I can invison the US losings aircraft or a ship. Yes I can. No country is invonerable. And when did I ever post such a statement of US invinciblity? But I honestly pray that no hostilities ever break out between the US and PRC. Both nations should be able to exist on this Earth in peace. And do you know why???

War Sucks!

Thank you.

I thought this thread was about submarines??? I do know this.. the USN has a real hard time if not impossible time tracking any SSK's.(desiel subs)

 

[Schumacher]

Re: Chinese sub thread


They've breached and killed in every RIMPAC they've entered - they have done it "routinely".
See above. This does not include the ex's run from the sub warfare training grid. in other words, there are more incidents of successful prosecution in other exercises.
In RIMPAC 2004 the Rankin slotted the SSN as well as the CVN. SSN's are there to run as the CVN's terrier. They are tasked in RIMPAC to kill the "red" sub before it can get to the carrier or designated target.
RIMPAC 2004 included the following blue assets against Rankin.
DF-31 - which is the ASW Squadron - it also trains other fleet ASW assets. It was comprised of 4 x Arleigh Burkes
3 other DDG and FFG's
2 ASW air elements. Both Air ASW groups are highly proficient and also act as trainers for other ASW air assets.

Couple of additional points.
The USN helo pack "cheated" by tracking and locking Rankin before she entered the training box. They should have had the advantage - especially as there were 3 of them who'd "locked and boxed"
Rankin came in and attacked from the coast side of the training box - a difficult thing to do as it makes a sub vulnerable for escape and evasion routines
The USN went to active pings in the closing stages - Rankin managed to avoid all the pinging assets
She avoided DF-31, 4 other skimmers, an SSN, 2 x dedicated asw air groups and air assets from the CVN. She also avoided detection by P3 Orions from Hawai'i.

When she scored the CVN kill, she played the aussie band "Men At Work's" signature song, "We Come from a Land Down Under" on the hydrophones.

I should also point out that the Kiwis "cheated" for the Fincastle ASW exercise one year by also tagging before the start of the Ex. Waller evaded and escaped as well.

finally, IMO the Japanese subs are the best deep diving conventionals in the world - and they are the only other large conventional sub capable of taking the larger combat suites available to the Collins. - In short, the Oyashio Class are very very good assets. IMV they're in the top 3 DE subs in use.

The ROE's are basically weapons free on sims - the blue force have absolute free reign to kill the enemy. the sub tasked as "red" has to hit specific targets within specific time frames and in a nominated exercise area. they are boxed to fight in controlled space.
in a few exercises (not RIMPAC 2002-2004), the subs have had to make noise so as to provide assistance to the hunters

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

Since this is a sub thread, here's something from a guy who seems very knowledgable from the defencetalk forum. It seems a 'kill' of a US carrier by the Aussie's Collins is quite routine & the guy actually made it sound easy. I can believe what it's written since I've also read some stuffs on carriers getting 'hit' even by Collins predecessor the Orion, though maybe not as 'easily' as Collins.
The more interesting question is how the Chinese subs Yuan, Song, Kilo compare to Collins.
I like the part abt the song "We Come from a Land Down Under", good song.

 

[bd popeye]

Re: Chinese sub thread

Schumacher, Those RIMPAC excersises are held yearly around Hawaii. they afford an oppurtunity for the US to suck up to as many Pacific Rim navies as possible. The excersise is one big ass kissing session. With the USN doing most of the ass kissing. Real world training does occur. The whole excersise is orchstrated by the USN. Did the Aussie Collins "sink" a CVN in the excersise? Of course if they said so. I think they did. I see the they said the US helos cheated. Could be. But according to this article with all the USN assest available they were able to elude a full suit of USN pursueres. Interseting. Personally as far as I know no Navy in the world can track a SSK. That is why the USN contracted the Swedish SSK Gotland to find technics to track an SSK.

I would love to read the full offical Aussie account of this RIMPAC. The classified version of course.

 

[Mr_C]

Re: Chinese sub thread

Schumacher, Those RIMPAC excersises are held yearly around Hawaii. they afford an oppurtunity for the US to suck up to as many Pacific Rim navies as possible. The excersise is one big ass kissing session. With the USN doing most of the ass kissing. Real world training does occur. The whole excersise is orchstrated by the USN. Did the Aussie Collins "sink" a CVN in the excersise? Of course if they said so. I think they did. I see the they said the US helos cheated. Could be. But according to this article with all the USN assest available they were able to elude a full suit of USN pursueres. Interseting. Personally as far as I know no Navy in the world can track a SSK. That is why the USN contracted the Swedish SSK Gotland to find technics to track an SSK.

I would love to read the full offical Aussie account of this RIMPAC. The classified version of course.

Yeah i am Aussie and have been around since we took delivery of the first Collins class. This sub had a rough history because apparently it was very noisy and the torpedos didn't fire when the crew pressed the button. But that was about 5 yrs ago and i guess they have worked out most of the bugs by now. The Collins Class had a nickname in Australia and it was known as the "Dud Sub". Well apparently they did sank a CVN in the exercise because it proved that the Collins was no longer the "Dud Sub" and it was all over this Aussie propaganda newspaper called the Daily telegraph they wrote down how they sunk the CVN.
Apparently (from memory since i read this 3 wks ago) the Captain of the Collins was still aware that she was abit noisier than most other Diesel Electric subs so she hide in an area that was somewhat more volcanically active (which is not too hard to find in Hawaii). So basically they said the noise from the seismic activity covered the sub's noise. And how it killed the CVN.... damn i forgot... get back to ya on this one.
But anyway they even had a TV crew onboard and they r broadcasting the show every wednesday night. The last show saw them arrived in South Korea.
Anyway it was all over the newspaper coz it proved that Collins was not a Dud anymore. But trust me i remember all the fuzz about how crap it was when we first got it.

 

[Schumacher]

Schumacher, Those RIMPAC excersises are held yearly around Hawaii. they afford an oppurtunity for the US to suck up to as many Pacific Rim navies as possible. The excersise is one big ass kissing session. With the USN doing most of the ass kissing. Real world training does occur. The whole excersise is orchstrated by the USN. Did the Aussie Collins "sink" a CVN in the excersise? Of course if they said so. I think they did. I see the they said the US helos cheated. Could be. But according to this article with all the USN assest available they were able to elude a full suit of USN pursueres. Interseting. Personally as far as I know no Navy in the world can track a SSK. That is why the USN contracted the Swedish SSK Gotland to find technics to track an SSK.

I would love to read the full offical Aussie account of this RIMPAC. The classified version of course.

Of course being an exercise, the US could have been holding back like what they did in the much talked abt F-15 vs Indian Sukhois encounter. But Aust is the US's closest ally behind maybe only the Brits. Aust would present the best opportunity for US to truely & fully test their ASW against SSKs therefore really don't see the need for US to hold back for fear of divulging stuffs like what they would do with India for example.

Yeah i am Aussie and have been around since we took delivery of the first Collins class. This sub had a rough history because apparently it was very noisy and the torpedos didn't fire when the crew pressed the button. But that was about 5 yrs ago and i guess they have worked out most of the bugs by now. The Collins Class had a nickname in Australia and it was known as the "Dud Sub". Well apparently they did sank a CVN in the exercise because it proved that the Collins was no longer the "Dud Sub" and it was all over this Aussie propaganda newspaper called the Daily telegraph they wrote down how they sunk the CVN.
Apparently (from memory since i read this 3 wks ago) the Captain of the Collins was still aware that she was abit noisier than most other Diesel Electric subs so she hide in an area that was somewhat more volcanically active (which is not too hard to find in Hawaii). So basically they said the noise from the seismic activity covered the sub's noise. And how it killed the CVN.... damn i forgot... get back to ya on this one.
But anyway they even had a TV crew onboard and they r broadcasting the show every wednesday night. The last show saw them arrived in South Korea.
Anyway it was all over the newspaper coz it proved that Collins was not a Dud anymore. But trust me i remember all the fuzz about how crap it was when we first got it.

What I have read so far say the Collins is one of the best SSKs in the world. I think most of the early criticisms were politically motivated as one would expect given it was such a huge project.

 

[darth sidious]

Re: Chinese sub thread

What I have read so far say the Collins is one of the best SSKs in the world. I think most of the early criticisms were politically motivated as one would expect given it was such a huge project.

is far from the best ssk for one its a converted design forn a swedish boat for costal defence

the poor propeller arrangement cause excessive noise also the bridge design is flawed

the main engine is also converted from one used on a oil plat form

alll the reason they suck

 

[Mazepa]

Re: Chinese sub thread

About finding Sterling SSK subs:

The Swedish Gotland class submarine leased for training with USN will go out for a new serie of trainingmissions. This time we will encounter USS Ronald Reagan Strike Group. It will be interesting to see if the results will be the same as the first round, but there is no reason to assume anything else. So good luck Swedish vikings and sink that big (Please don't use words like this) and make us proud