Chinese semiconductor thread II

[tokenanalyst]

I am really trying to figure out how upstream this is in the supply chain. Chip -> fab equipment -> fab equipment part -> machinery that makes the part -> part for the machinery that makes the part... It is removed by 4 layers. I don't think it can be specifically considered a semiconductor industry item by this point. I looked at it and it has many other applications, most being high-tech industries.

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On this thread, I once wrote that the semiconductor localization drive would lead to advancements in everything high-tech in China. This is a good example.

Is really complicated and convoluted.

Ultra Pure materials (Ceramics, Plastics, Quartz, metals,....) -> Processing Tools -> Parts and Components (Capacitors,Resistors, Inductors, tubes, Vacuum components, frames, valves, Boats, RF,...) -> Chips, sensors and software code -> Subsystems (Matching networks, liquid and gas dispensers, mass flow controllers ,lens systems,.....)-> Wafer Processing Equipment (Ion implanters, Etching machines, lithography machines, deposition machines and so on.)

Ultra Pure materials (Ceramics, Plastics, Quartz, metals,....) -> Processing Tools -> Parts and Components (Capacitors,Resistors, Inductors, tubes, Vacuum components, frames, valves, Boats, RF,...) -> Chips, sensors and software code -> Subsystems (liquid and gas dispensers, mass flow controllers ,.....)-> Auxiliary equipment.

Ultra Pure materials (Ceramics, Plastics, Quartz, metals,....)->Processing Tools-> Consumables.

Ultra Pure materials(Chrome, glass, resist) -> Mask processing tools -> mask

Ultra Pure materials(Wafers, Chemicals,...)->Multi Million dollars buildings -> water and other chemical processing rooms-> Clean Room -> Wafer Fabrication tools-> Auxiliary equipment -> Mask-> Consumables -> IC Dies.

Chip Packaging, another whole world.

The supply extend to:
EDA and other Chip designing software, electronics assembly and so on.

 

[Awenumick]

View attachment 128715

Proof here that Huawei has permanent right to ARM V9 ISA. And they have SoC rights. So there is basically nothing preventing them from using latest ARM ISA

I have seen this image before. But can you please tell me what is the source of this image? Also, I think depending on ARM will be foolish for China I think; given it's a British company they might need to heed to US' instruction some day and can block Chinese companies from accessing its patents.

 

[FairAndUnbiased]

I have seen this image before. But can you please tell me what is the source of this image? Also, I think depending on ARM will be foolish for China I think; given it's a British company they might need to heed to US' instruction some day and can block Chinese companies from accessing its patents.

block Chinese companies from accessing its patents.

how are they going to stop Chinese companies from using their patents?

 

[Almond98]

I have seen this image before. But can you please tell me what is the source of this image? Also, I think depending on ARM will be foolish for China I think; given it's a British company they might need to heed to US' instruction some day and can block Chinese companies from accessing its patents.

Im pretty sure they know it. Huawei is currently developing their own ISA which is called lingxi. And there is lot of chinese companies using risc V. So i dont think we have to worry about that.

 

[huemens]

View attachment 128715

Proof here that Huawei has permanent right to ARM V9 ISA. And they have SoC rights. So there is basically nothing preventing them from using latest ARM ISA

It seems currently no one is really interested in v9. Only the SoCs that use ARM's own cores use v9. Apple is still on v8. Qualcomm's new core also use v8. May be because v9 is just v8 + a few extensions that are mostly targeted at AI stuff. These days all high-end SoC's have dedicated cores for that kind of stuff.

 

[pakje]

anyone want to speculate why Huawei is going for their own ISA in favor of risc-V?

 

[siegecrossbow]

anyone want to speculate why Huawei is going for their own ISA in favor of risc-V?

Becausw some jackass is contemplating banning open source. Not even sure how that will work.

 

[tphuang]

China Mobile has developed DPU that can handle 400Gbps of signal processing. This will be widely used in China mobile data centers

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[huemens]

anyone want to speculate why Huawei is going for their own ISA in favor of risc-V?

They have not completely dropped RISC-V. Huawei is still a Premier member of the RISC-V International and Hisilicon does RISC-V development. Recently they have released some RISC-V MCUs. But given the US threats they must be exploring multiple avenues.

Designing the ISA itself is the easy part of moving to a new ISA. The time and money consuming part is designing efficient cores for it, porting programming languages, tools, OSs, software, getting developer and industry adoption. In the RISC-V world a lot of this heavy lifting is currently done by Chinese companies. So why not focus all that energy and investment towards a clean design free from any potential US meddling.

 

[gelgoog]

The problem is, much like Loongson, any Huawei architecture will likely not be open for adoption by other Chinese hardware makers. Or even if it is it won't get adopted by anyone else. Which means there will be yet more needless duplication of effort.