Chinese semiconductor industry

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ansy1968

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Annihilation98 said:
China now has no choice except to research their own R&D and technology..USA basically can stop all the equipment to china without any retaliation because their influence is too big..ASML is the prime example even it is not usa company... If china start research about euv 4 to 5 years ago instead research about 5g, this kind of problem will never happen.. China need too prioritize which is important.. For me moon landing is waste of money.. Instead spending on moon mission, its better to R&D jet engine for plane.. China still depend on boeing and airbus..even russia which gdp is lower than china has master jet engine technology.. Germany and UK despite doesnt have proper space mission still better semiconductor technology than China ..China still lose to korea in technology despite their population is just 50 million people and china is 1.4 billion people.. This is very embarassing..
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Hi Annihilation98,

its better to R&D jet engine for plane

It has and it's called 01 PROJECT.

Regarding the semiconductor It's also being taken care of, It's called 02 PROJECT, here let me repost what our member SUPERDOG had posted regarding the 02 PROJECT. FYI 01 and 02 PROJECT is part of the 13th five year plan 2016-2020, So we will see some major progress and development from the said project. One of this the 28nm SMEE DUVL will be delivered next year.

The current product being developed by SMEE is said to be the SSB800 series, which is an ArF light source immersed lithography machine. This was funded by the "28nm node immersive lithography machine" topic, under the "02 project" and the 13th 5-year plan (2016-2020). Expected delivery is 2021. It can also be expected that the machine will have less foreign dependency, as local upstream suppliers (Beijing Guowang Optical Tech,
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, Changchun Institute of Optics etc.) are providing key components such as the light source, the optical system, and the "dual wafer stage" design, all of which are sub-topics in the 02 project.

It is important to understand that one generation of lithography machine corresponds to multiple generations of chip process nodes. How far the machine can be pushed also depends on the technical know-how of the foundry. For example, SMIC owns the same model of ASML ArF immersed lithography machines that TSMC used to make 1st gen 7nm chips, but SMIC only just started 14nm production. Getting a great sculpting knife doesn't mean you can immediately become a great sculptor.

We don't know what is the process node limit of the SSB800 series. It is technically in the same generation of ASML's DUV machines that TSMC pushed up to 7nm, but that took the most advanced foundry and a much more mature lithography product line to achieve. My guesstimate is that for the SSB800, 28nm would be a good initial trial target (also required by the national plan), and 10-14nm should be within reach after some adjustment and improvement. 7nm is questionable, I think it depends on how long China will get stuck on DUV.

To go beyond 7nm, it is necessary up a generation and get EUV lithography machines. I heard they've made good progress in EUV light source (which is a key technical challenge), otherwise little is known about the progress of a domestic EUV machine. I don't expect to see it soon, but it is in their plan for sure.

The difficulty to catch up in semiconductor manufactoring must not be underestimated, and China is one player that don't underestimate things. You know, the full name of the 02 project is "The project of manufacturing technology and complete sets of technology for very large scale IC's", but why do people call it the 02 project? Because it is considered the 2nd most important in all of China's 16 long term tech development projects.

So bro, I was just like you, impatient and anxious. We're lucky to have some knowledgeable member here to explain to us what really happening inside China, not some random journalist wanted to write anything about China (usually negative) for writing sake. And if you read this thread from the start, you will find that what we discussed is coming to fruition and that what made this thread so exciting.
 
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Appix

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The SSB800 series that is now under development with SMEE can go how far with the chip processes? Can the machine be used for 28nm, 14nm and 7nm? I have noticed that they have finished their SSB500 and SSB600 series but those machines can only be used down to 90nm process which is ancient in the chip industry. SMEE is doing good work so much is absolutely obvious.
 
Hendrik_2000

Hendrik_2000

Lieutenant General
tamsen_ikard said:
Moon landing is certainly not a waste of money. Advancing in space creates advanced tech useful better missiles, better satellite, precision sensors, automated control and many more. But even without these benefits advancement in space creates a perception among Chinese that their country is strong in technology.

This soft power boost is extremely important to create a sense of patriotism and confidence. China's biggest problem internally is lack of self-confidence and western worship among the Chinese public. This creates situation where any chance a talented Chinese gets to go abroad, they do so and stay there. This is certainly not for China's development. Western worship also creates problems for Chinese companies who are not trusted by their own fellow countrymen. If Chinese products and Chinese innovation is not trusted then they will never be viable to replace the western products. Why Chinese semiconductor industry did not develop in the past? Its because Chinese companies did not trust Chinese made chips as reliable and advanced enough and when western alternatives were available, why not use them.

This is why PR stunts like moon landing and other advanced tech demonstrations are important because they show how the country is now advanced and on par with the west.
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People forgot that the semiconductor industry in Silicon valley was spurred by the Apollo program need to have compact computer . An they become the incubator for the later blooming of semiconductor . Fairchild developed the first semiconductor and Steve Jobs, Wozniak, Noyce from intel all work at Fairchild semiconductor
 
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ansy1968

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Registered Member
Appix said:
The SSB800 series that is now under development with SMEE can go how far with the chip processes? Can the machine be used for 28nm, 14nm and 7nm? I have noticed that they have finished their SSB500 and SSB600 series but those machines can only be used down to 90nm process which is ancient in the chip industry. SMEE is doing good work so much is absolutely obvious.
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Hi Appix,

Yes, since it's recent , it's more advance than ASML DUVL that SMIC is using. Maybe up to 3nm using the Chiplet technique by the recently hired MR Jiang. NIKON of Japan advertised that it's latest DUVL can do 5nm using multiple patterning, SMEE 28NM DUVL is comparable to that. TSMC 1st gen 7nm was produce using ASML 38NM DUVL, the same equipment that SMIC use now. But as SUPERDOG had stated it depends upon the FABS ability on how to utilized them.

from superdog

It is important to understand that one generation of lithography machine corresponds to multiple generations of chip process nodes. How far the machine can be pushed also depends on the technical know-how of the foundry. For example, SMIC owns the same model of ASML ArF immersed lithography machines that TSMC used to make 1st gen 7nm chips, but SMIC only just started 14nm production. Getting a great sculpting knife doesn't mean you can immediately become a great sculptor.


As of now, We're getting close, SMIC 7nm N+1 (8nm) will be mass produce early next year, while waiting for the more advance and improved N+2 (7nm comparable to TSMC 1st gen 7NM) to finished it's development in 2021 and be ready for mass production later that year. That's the reason Trump imposed the sanction to SMIC to impede its progress.
 
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manqiangrexue

manqiangrexue

Brigadier
Annihilation98 said:
China now has no choice except to research their own R&D and technology..USA basically can stop all the equipment to china without any retaliation because their influence is too big..ASML is the prime example even it is not usa company... If china start research about euv 4 to 5 years ago instead research about 5g, this kind of problem will never happen.. China need too prioritize which is important.. For me moon landing is waste of money.. Instead spending on moon mission, its better to R&D jet engine for plane.. China still depend on boeing and airbus..even russia which gdp is lower than china has master jet engine technology.. Germany and UK despite doesnt have proper space mission still better semiconductor technology than China ..China still lose to korea in technology despite their population is just 50 million people and china is 1.4 billion people.. This is very embarassing..
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Reread Chinese semiconductor industry

Countries aren't people. Countries can do more than 1 thing at once without having them all be dragged down by the others. Rocket scientists can't be put to work on lithography. Hindsight is easy and not useful.

Small countries like Korea and Japan bowed to the Western alliance for a small piece of the technology pie. A small niche piece which the West can crush with sanctions at any dissent and they would have no recourse but to surrender. China stands on its own legs in defiance even when it was an insect in technology and aims to dominate and overtake every field. These are not comparable.
 
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Anlsvrthng

Captain
Registered Member
manqiangrexue said:
Reread Chinese semiconductor industry

Countries aren't people. Countries can do more than 1 thing at once without having them all be dragged down by the others. Rocket scientists can't be put to work on lithography. Hindsight is easy and not useful.

Small countries like Korea and Japan bowed to the Western alliance for a small piece of the technology pie. A small niche piece which the West can crush with sanctions at any dissent and they would have no recourse but to surrender. China stands on its own legs in defiance even when it was an insect in technology and aims to dominate and overtake every field. These are not comparable.
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Countries are managed by people, and the biggest failures are due to the limited capability of them.

A single person can't manage even 100 person, it needs complex organisations.

The USA strategy with throwing wrenches to critical processes undermine the decision making process/ resource allocation - lot of resource went into waste, and has to redistributed to compensate it.
 
Hendrik_2000

Hendrik_2000

Lieutenant General
Anlsvrthng said:
Countries are managed by people, and the biggest failures are due to the limited capability of them.

A single person can't manage even 100 person, it needs complex organisations.

The USA strategy with throwing wrenches to critical processes undermine the decision making process/ resource allocation - lot of resource went into waste, and has to redistributed to compensate it.
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What make you think China lack the project management people. The SOE have build thousand of project large and small, inside and outside the country. Every year they graduate thousands of people specializing in project management . Not counting thousand more trained by private industries. NO I don't think China lack people in project management.

Anyway the drive to be independent in Semiconductore precede the Trump embargo It has started way back in 2010 and has been on going for decades. The central government has always exhorted to be independent in semiconductor. But the effort was stymied by lack of interest in the industries due to cheap and readily available chips made in US and elsewhere. And lack of vision on the side of China's captain of industries. Now they pay the price for their lazyness and self complancencies.
 
coolieno99

coolieno99

Junior Member
Annihilation98 said:
... If china start research about euv 4 to 5 years ago instead research about 5g, this kind of problem will never happen.. ..China still lose to korea in technology despite their population is just 50 million people and china is 1.4 billion people.. This is very embarassing..
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Actually China started research on EUV as early as 2011. The following links to summary (2013 and 2015) of Chinese research (by academic institutions) into EUV lithographic tools.

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As far as S. Korea, it's commendable for a small country to produce memory chips and automobiles. Yes, China is a much bigger country so it has to strive to a higher standard. I'm just to make a short list of China's achievements : Land on the Moon and successfully retrieved rock samples; recently with a newly built submersible dived down to 35,000 ft deep in the Mariana Trench(Pacific Ocean); built fusion reactor that generate heat up to 150 million degrees C; built weaponized hydrogen bomb with yield of 3MT(equivalent to 150 Hiroshima bombs); built world's largest dam; construct the largest high speed rail network in the world; .... etc

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Anlsvrthng

Captain
Registered Member
Hendrik_2000 said:
What make you think China lack the project management people. The SOE have build thousand of project large and small, inside and outside the country. Every year they graduate thousands of people specializing in project management . Not counting thousand more trained by private industries. NO I don't think China lack people in project management.

Anyway the drive to be independent in Semiconductore precede the Trump embargo It has started way back in 2010 and has been on going for decades. The central government has always exhorted to be independent in semiconductor. But the effort was stymied by lack of interest in the industries due to cheap and readily available chips made in US and elsewhere. And lack of vision on the side of China's captain of industries. Now they pay the price for their lazyness and self complancencies.
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Problem is this kind of actions can be avoided only with central planning, not by bottom up strategy.

This is the reason why they are so effective, at least at the beginning.
 
manqiangrexue

manqiangrexue

Brigadier
Anlsvrthng said:
Countries are managed by people, and the biggest failures are due to the limited capability of them.

A single person can't manage even 100 person, it needs complex organisations.

The USA strategy with throwing wrenches to critical processes undermine the decision making process/ resource allocation - lot of resource went into waste, and has to redistributed to compensate it.
Click to expand...
Being limited doesn't mean that China has reached its limits or that it was stretched. What you said has nothing to do with the comment I was rebutting, which curiously accused the moon landing of slowing down semiconductor/lithography progress.
 
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