Chinese semiconductor industry

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gelgoog

Lieutenant General
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With regards to use of the dollar to buy oil. That isn't necessary when buying from Russia or Iran.
China has pledged to make massive investments in the Iranian oil industry.
I think given enough time other countries in the Middle East will also start accepting other currency.
China already has the Navy to secure shipments from the Middle East regardless of what you may hear.
They just don't flex their muscle as much as the US Navy does.

More on topic, like I said before, I think what will happen to the semiconductor industry is much like what happened with ITAR. Once the US sanctioned sales of anything with US components to China, Europe developed alternative sources and made the sale anyway. US satellite business almost collapsed after ITAR. Launcher business was also a disaster until SpaceX came along.
I think it is highly likely other vendors in the Asia-Pacific region will replace US vendors in the middle to long term because of these bans. Japan and South Korea will likely expect similar sanctions and will produce their own equipment. Japan already has products in nearly every category and only lacked funding in lithography. Even ASML might be forced to reconsider changing light source for all we know.

Again. China must not let NVIDIA buy ARM.
 

Anlsvrthng

Captain
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More on topic, like I said before, I think what will happen to the semiconductor industry is much like what happened with ITAR. Once the US sanctioned sales of anything with US components to China, Europe developed alternative sources and made the sale anyway. US satellite business almost collapsed after ITAR. Launcher business was also a disaster until SpaceX came along.
I think it is highly likely other vendors in the Asia-Pacific region will replace US vendors in the middle to long term because of these bans. Japan and South Korea will likely expect similar sanctions and will produce their own equipment. Japan already has products in nearly every category and only lacked funding in lithography. Even ASML might be forced to reconsider changing light source for all we know.

Again. China must not let NVIDIA buy ARM.

I think the effect of ban will have bigger effect on the semiconductor market than on the satellite .

The USA military is a huge R&D spender, and the big part of market is them. Means the USA satellite manufacturers has unfair market advantage ,even with ITAR.

This doesn't exist on the semi field, means there is no unfair competitive advantage of the USA manufacturers .

However , banning USA manufactured parts eroding the global American empire, by decreasing the capability to offer anything in exchange for the import.

Only thing that slowly stay is the offer for the Chinese officials/business persons to use the USA as safe heaven and escape route.
 

mderfox

New Member
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The
The person who wrote the article is not working in a semi foundry but he is just writing from a business point of view, i.e. he is not qualified to tell if it is possible to build a modern semi fab without US technology.
I have read contrasting articles in the past few months and usually the most qualified people don't give a definitive answer on this matter.
My taking is that since US companies have a large share in some segments of semi equpment almost all modern Fabs contain some equpment from US vendors. That is why Huawei is finding hard to find a Fab for its chip designs. Nevertheless by looking at the web it seems that there are non US alternatives in each segment even where US companies have 70/80 share. I think that it just takes time to redesign a process without US equpments and build a fab. So it is a battle against time especially for Huawei smartphone business where volumes are very high.

Biggest problem even alternatives equipment or raw material suppliers still contain US tech. Maybe one day US will get more crazy, they put law supplier to the supplier contain US tech is banned. Bear in mind, semiconductor is developed by US more than 60 years. Internet also developed by US, many tech company can't runaway from US hegemony.

Some company like Huawei will be survived and thriving, Company like SMIC probably got busted unless government coming into help, my take probably unlikely. Many fab already busted in China. Lets take example, SMIC already develp 7nm and 5nm tech waiting for EUVL coming. when equipment doesn't arrived, push SMIC to hell. All R&D money develop basis on ASML equipment going drain. many experiment is done using ASML equipment need to redo using other equipment. FAB business is capital extensive and chance SMIC survive without helping from government is low.
 

WTAN

Junior Member
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Cutting Off Our Nose to Spite Our Face: US Policy towards Huawei and China in Key Semiconductor Industry Inputs, Capital Equipment and Electronic Design Automation Tools

This chapter evaluates the US government's expanding export controls on Huawei.This chapter has four major findings. First, over the next five years even substantial Chinese efforts to replace American capital equipment and EDA tools with homegrown alternatives are very unlikely to succeed. Second, the severity of constraints on Huawei will depend more on the availability of international alternatives to American technology than on the availability of Chinese products. For chip design, the lack of suitable legal alternatives to American EDA tools globally will severely challenge Huawei’s ability to design chips. In contrast, for manufacturing chips, there are alternatives to American capital equipment within a relatively short timeframe so manufacturing firms could relatively quickly produce Huawei’s chips if they chose to eschew American technology to do so. Third, these constraints will most likely knock down Huawei but will not knock Huawei out of the telecommunications industry. Finally, the longer-term costs for American capital equipment and EDA tool vendors could loom large as foreign customers perceive American-made or -designed products as carrying significant political risk and strive to develop alternative sources.

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Nonsense.......thats what this report is. A waste of Data just downloading this.

The Localised 28nm Production Line is ready and the SMEE 28nm DUVL is also ready.

Huawei's FAB will begin construction next year in Shanghai to produce 45nm, 28nm, 22nm and eventually 14nm Chips.

This Report by John Hopkins University sounds like something they wrote to convince Trump that he is doing the right thing just before he lands in jail for Rape, Fraud and Tax Evasion.
 

Alb

New Member
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Biggest problem even alternatives equipment or raw material suppliers still contain US tech. Maybe one day US will get more crazy, they put law supplier to the supplier contain US tech is banned. Bear in mind, semiconductor is developed by US more than 60 years. Internet also developed by US, many tech company can't runaway from US hegemony.

Some company like Huawei will be survived and thriving, Company like SMIC probably got busted unless government coming into help, my take probably unlikely. Many fab already busted in China. Lets take example, SMIC already develp 7nm and 5nm tech waiting for EUVL coming. when equipment doesn't arrived, push SMIC to hell. All R&D money develop basis on ASML equipment going drain. many experiment is done using ASML equipment need to redo using other equipment. FAB business is capital extensive and chance SMIC survive without helping from government is low.
ASML and other non US comoanies can continue to supply SMIC. ASML CEO reiterated that during the last earning call. The fact that ASML has not shipped the EUV tool to SMIC is because the Dutch Government has not granted an export license. That is a political decision as the Netherlands was under intense US pressure and has nothing to do with the blacklist. I think only a political intervention from the top, i.e. chairman Xi, can unblocked the delivery.
The rule that no company can sell to Huawei if the good concerned contains any US technology was very ecceptional and was only for Huawei. Hope this clarifies..
 

Alb

New Member
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ASML and other non US comoanies can continue to supply SMIC. ASML CEO reiterated that during the last earning call. The fact that ASML has not shipped the EUV tool to SMIC is because the Dutch Government has not granted an export license. That is a political decision as the Netherlands was under intense US pressure and has nothing to do with the blacklist. I think only a political intervention from the top, i.e. chairman Xi, can unblocked the delivery.
The rule that no company can sell to Huawei if the good concerned contains any US technology was very ecceptional and was only for Huawei. Hope this clarifies..
Also we have to bear in mind that China has so far decided not to respond but can easily target US companies and inflict a lot of damage. Take Micron for instance it gets 60% of its revenue from China and its products can be easily be replaced by Korean companies. If China puts Micron on the unreliable list that would probably a death sentence.
 

Phead128

Captain
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Moderator - World Affairs
Nonsense.......thats what this report is. A waste of Data just downloading this.

The Localised 28nm Production Line is ready and the SMEE 28nm DUVL is also ready.

Huawei's FAB will begin construction next year in Shanghai to produce 45nm, 28nm, 22nm and eventually 14nm Chips.

This Report by John Hopkins University sounds like something they wrote to convince Trump that he is doing the right thing just before he lands in jail for Rape, Fraud and Tax Evasion.

As someone who graduated from Johns Hopkins, I can tell you that the author of that report is from JHU APL (applied physics lab) which does military contracts with US navy, Dept of Defense, and research is primarily funded by govt contracts.

They are not neutral in any way, they are biased in serving the govts interest since it's literally funded by the govt, esp. military for most of R&D.

Their strengths is robotics, computer security, and spacecrafts, not semiconductors at all.
 
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Annihilation98

Junior Member
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China now has no choice except to research their own R&D and technology..USA basically can stop all the equipment to china without any retaliation because their influence is too big..ASML is the prime example even it is not usa company... If china start research about euv 4 to 5 years ago instead research about 5g, this kind of problem will never happen.. China need too prioritize which is important.. For me moon landing is waste of money.. Instead spending on moon mission, its better to R&D jet engine for plane.. China still depend on boeing and airbus..even russia which gdp is lower than china has master jet engine technology.. Germany and UK despite doesnt have proper space mission still better semiconductor technology than China ..China still lose to korea in technology despite their population is just 50 million people and china is 1.4 billion people.. This is very embarassing..
 

tamsen_ikard

Junior Member
Registered Member
China now has no choice except to research their own R&D and technology..USA basically can stop all the equipment to china without any retaliation because their influence is too big..ASML is the prime example even it is not usa company... If china start research about euv 4 to 5 years ago instead research about 5g, this kind of problem will never happen.. China need too prioritize which is important.. For me moon landing is waste of money.. Instead spending on moon mission, its better to R&D jet engine for plane.. China still depend on boeing and airbus..even russia which gdp is lower than china has master jet engine technology.. Germany and UK despite doesnt have proper space mission still better semiconductor technology than China ..China still lose to korea in technology despite their population is just 50 million people and china is 1.4 billion people.. This is very embarassing..

Moon landing is certainly not a waste of money. Advancing in space creates advanced tech useful better missiles, better satellite, precision sensors, automated control and many more. But even without these benefits advancement in space creates a perception among Chinese that their country is strong in technology.

This soft power boost is extremely important to create a sense of patriotism and confidence. China's biggest problem internally is lack of self-confidence and western worship among the Chinese public. This creates situation where any chance a talented Chinese gets to go abroad, they do so and stay there. This is certainly not for China's development. Western worship also creates problems for Chinese companies who are not trusted by their own fellow countrymen. If Chinese products and Chinese innovation is not trusted then they will never be viable to replace the western products. Why Chinese semiconductor industry did not develop in the past? Its because Chinese companies did not trust Chinese made chips as reliable and advanced enough and when western alternatives were available, why not use them.

This is why PR stunts like moon landing and other advanced tech demonstrations are important because they show how the country is now advanced and on par with the west.
 
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